Mick Clarke of Killing Floor, SALT & The Mick Clarke Band

Mick Clarke is a British blues guitarist and songwriter who was a founding member of the band Killing Floor. The blues rock unit lasted from 1968 to 1972 with a couple of albums and several singles to their credit. The band reformed in 2002 and have released 2 more albums. In 1975 Mick co-founded the band SALT, and although did not release any material at the time, a compilation of the complete studio recordings, “The Cobra’s Melodies”, saw the light of day in 2011. In the early 80’s Mr. Clarke formed his own group, The Mick Clarke Band. Mick and his band have been favorites at many music festivals over the years and have played alongside such artists as Johnny Winter, Rory Gallagher and Canned Heat to name a few. Mick has released 23 solo albums to date, his latest, “The Blues, Man, Rides Again!” just came out recently. My guest continues to tour, record and release new material.

Welcome Mick! Take us back to the beginning. Where were you born?

Hi Greg. Born in Wimbledon, not near the tennis courts, more to the south on the edge of suburban Merton Park, in Nelson Hospital, named after our naval hero Horatio. Lady Hamilton’s house is just down the road and he used to pop round to see her and attend the local church. There are steps there where he used to get up on his horse after the service.

Fond childhood memories?

Dad was a news agent so I was literally brought up in a sweet shop. And yes, I got a sweet and a comic every day. Spoilt rotten.

I was born five years after the second world war ended – there were still bombed out houses etc – smogs – old men in ex army greatcoats puffing on woodbines. But a loving family – mum and dad, two elder brothers, a cat and some chickens!

Early on do you remember hearing music in the house?

Someone gave us an old wind-up gramophone and a pile of 78s. I loved it – they were mainly novelty records like ‘The Laughing Policeman’ or ‘A Four-Legged Friend’ by Roy Rogers. My favourite was ‘The Runaway Train’ – not sure which version that was.

Do you come from a musical family?

No. Dad would play the piano after a sherry but only from the sheet music and not very well. Don’t know where I got it from – some strange throwback.

First single or album you bought?

Me personally – ‘Telstar’ by The Tornados. At the time it was a revolutionary ‘heavy’ sound. I loved The Tornados and bought nothing but instrumental records for a couple of years.

But there were other influences. Mum bought show albums like ‘My Fair Lady’ and I learned all the songs and lyrics by heart. And my brother Derek bought the hits of the day – Elvis, Cliff Richard, Lonnie Donnegan. And the B Sides were often blues and R&B.

At what age did you begin playing guitar?

About 13. Some friends had ‘a group’ and I thought it seemed exciting. And I found I could play it quite easily, as long as it was one string at a time stuff. I was never that good at chords, but my friend Nigel was, so we worked well together.

What musicians you were into early on?

Everyone. I was so lucky because my teens coincided with the 60s and the start of the beat boom. Beatles, Stones, Animals, Yardbirds – all of them.

First concert you attended?

Probably The Kinks. Headliners were The Hollies and The Dave Clarke Five. Great! During that time I saw The Animals, Yardbirds, Small Faces, lots more. Never saw The Beatles (or The Stones until later). All very exciting.

You got your first taste of the music industry as an assistant engineer at Advision Studio.

I lost interest in school and was happy to drop out at 15. I wrote off to Advision and got a job offer as a ‘tape jockey’. It was exciting – they were a top studio and I did sessions with Jimmy Page, Graham Bond and others. Our big hit was ‘Winchester Cathedral’ by The New Vaudeville Band. But I was no good at the job – not enough technical know-how – and I think it was not really what I’d expected. I think I wanted to be a producer, not an engineer. I remember one long evening recording two opera singers at a piano. I thought ‘this ain’t rock’n’roll’. Anyway, they chucked me out after a month.

Was your first formal band Cliff Charles Blues?

Yes, we met through an ad in the Melody Maker music mag. He had a flat in Covent Garden, in the heart of the West End, so it was quite exciting hanging out there. And just round the corner was ‘Middle Earth’, the big hippy club. So we played there, a college date with Graham Bond, and a spot with Fleetwood Mac.

I love early Fleetwood Mac. What was it like playing a date with Peter Green?

It was brilliant. This was a tiny club, The Nag’s Head pub in Battersea, and I’d been along a few times to see them there – catching Mr. Green at his peak, I would say. And then we got to play in the interval. I played through Peter’s Vox amp but Mike Vernon came over and turned it down a bit which I thought was a bit unfair. Anyway, we just did three songs and afterwards I bumped into Peter on the stairs and he said “That was good”. I probably just turned bright red and stumbled on. Still it’s a nice memory.

Talk about the formation of Killing Floor.

After Advision my Mum got me a proper job in an office in The City. It was horrible but at least I was able to buy my first Gibson and Marshall. I found myself in a band called ‘The Loop’ and they advertised for a singer and this bloke Bill Thorndycraft turned up. I thought his voice was a bit like Long John Baldry, and he played electric harp which was rare in those days. And we got on well. We did one gig with the band and it was a disaster, so we thought maybe we could form a new band together.

So we advertised, again, in the Melody Maker. Mac, the bass player had come down from Wales and was sleeping in his van outside Clapham South tube station. Bazz the drummer was someone Bill knew from his previous band’s touring in Germany, and we found the pianist Lou Martin, again, through the Melody Maker. Bill and Mac went over to his family home in Woolwhich and were bowled over by his playing.

Your first show was at Middle Earth with Captain Beefheart. Memories of that gig?

Bazz’s brother was a policeman, and Middle Earth was on his beat, so he popped in and got us a gig! They billed us as ‘Policeman’s Special’. We played on one of the smaller stages – about half an hour – it was OK. Then we got to watch Captain Beefheart which was entertaining. I loved Middle Earth – smelt strongly of joss sticks, no doubt to cover up other smells. Big light shows – all of that.

You also played with the early Jethro Tull, which was very blues oriented at that time.

Yes, all the bands seem to have started as ‘blues bands’ – perhaps because that was trendy at the time. I liked the early band – Mick Abrahams was a great guitarist – I could never copy some of those jazzy runs he could do. We played with them at a big place called The California Ballroom, just North of London. Ian Anderson came over and watched us until I started a song in the wrong key and we had to stop half way through. Then he left – don’t blame him.

What are your memories of recording the first album, 1969’s Killing Floor?

Haha. Exciting but chaotic. Pye No. 2 studio in the West End – a top studio with an excellent engineer. But we were as green as the hills and our producer was crap. I can say that now, because he’s dead. Sorry John. He was our manager and knew nothing about our music – other than that blues was the happening thing at the time. So the first thing that happened was that he said that all the songs had to be originals. Well they weren’t – they were Chicago Blues standards. So Bill had to go and sit in the toilet and re-write all the lyrics. Then we thundered through the set and, in my opinion, made every rookie mistake in the book. I remember doing a guitar dub where I couldn’t hear what I was playing – sure enough it turned out to be way out of tune. There were ill judged ‘spontaneous’ spoken bits and we recorded far too much music for an LP and had to chop it up viciously afterwards.

But the worst thing was when the record came out. We assembled at Bill’s mum’s house to play it through her old stereo Radiogram. But there was no guitar! Just the echo of the guitar! They’d panned it so far to one side that the early mono / stereo vinyl wasn’t picking it up. I went mad – threw a screwdriver across the room and broke one of Bill’s mum’s cups! Got to laugh now, but I was seriously pissed off.

We marched up to the manager’s flat and he put the record on – and it played perfectly. But nine times out of ten it didn’t pick up the guitar, including when it was played on BBC Radio, and when I took it up to BBC DJ Mike Raven’s place for him to write the sleeve notes. I think it lost half the impact and could have been more successful if people had heard it properly.

Hideaway – Freddie King & Killing Floor

How did you hook up with Freddie King? And tour with him?

Well, to be fair, that was something that our manager got right. I remember him hinting at it backstage at The Marquee Club in London… ‘Groovy things happening boys!’. We were embarrassed at the time, because this was in front of The Nice, who’d just returned from their American tour, and we thought what a dork our manager was. But yes, he did sort out a tour with Freddie.

So we ended up doing two tours with Freddie and would have done a third, except he didn’t get his advance money, so he didn’t come over. Lovely man, very professional, great guitarist, great singer, great showman, great professional. I learned so much, though probably didn’t realise until much later. Years later my wife heard a tape of our shows and said ‘sounds like you’. It was only then that I realised how much I’d soaked up. Yes, I was doing loads of his runs and tricks, only in my own way. So a big important influence.

How was it playing in Switzerland and Germany? How were the audiences?

At that time the European club and festival scene hadn’t really developed, so the gigs were mainly residencies in discos, two or three weeks at a time. One was the PN Hit House in Munich – right in Schwabing, the trendy bit, the ‘Kings Road’ of Munich. Again – chaos. We had no idea where we were going – I remember getting off the ferry in Belgium and asking truck drivers “which way to Munich?” – (about 500 miles away). So of course we were really late – arrived there when the club was in full swing – got the gear through the people and then I realised I had to change our mains plug for a German one – in the dark – tired – hungry – and with six sets to play. And the manager complaining all the time – “Too Many Volumes!”.

Another one was the Hirschen in Zurich – just a hangout for the local hookers basically. But we enjoyed it, mainly because we got to play a lot – and when we got back to the UK we were a far tighter band. All the bands did the circuit – when we arrived at the Hirschen there was a note from the previous band, who later changed their name to Black Sabbath.

2nd album, Out of Uranus from 1970, obviously a play on words?

My fault. A friend mentioned that a band at his college was called ‘Out of Uranus’ and I innocently repeated this at a band meeting where we were deciding on a name for the album. So that was it.

And the record company had a cover which had been designed previously for another record and never used – so we just slung the two together – no particular connection. Although the cover was quite iconic and pops up now in collections of 60s artwork, the guy who did it became a bit of a name.

The album was recorded on Larry Page’s Penny Farthing label. Some great music was released on that label. Last year I spoke with Paul Griggs who was in the band Octopus, and they recorded on Penny Farthing.

I don’t know Octopus. We felt that Penny Farthing was pretty much a pop label, but Larry Page did have some contacts. His big successes had been The Kinks and The Troggs. So we nearly had a hit single from the album – ‘Call For The Politicians’ and we went on BBC radio and TV. The single did quite well in Germany, but nobody told us at the time! Usual story.

The band appeared on BBC2 on what would be the predecessor of The Old Grey Whistle Test. How was that miming to “Milkman”? The entire 5 minute + version or a shorter version?

Yes, that was our big TV appearance. I think it was the full length, although we had to remix it without the vocal, so we mimed to the backing track and Bill sang the vocal live. A bit bizarre – all of us standing on our little podiums – Bazz bashing away on the plastic cymbals they gave him. That TV version is actually available on a later CD release, but I’ve never been able to track down the video.

What was Funky Fever?

Well Killing Floor weren’t doing much at this time, and I got offered a three-week tour of American bases in Germany with this band Funky Fever. I just wanted to play gigs and earn money so I took it, although I felt bad about letting KF down somewhat. Lenny Zakatek was the singer – a kind of Cliff Richard character – nice guy and clearly an excellent singer. I’m glad he did well with Alan Parsons.

Talk about playing in Germany at a gig where someone shot a gun before the show?

Yes, it was in the bar / restaurant at one of the bases before the gig. I clearly remember seeing the gun waved and hearing the bang – I dived under a table until it was all over. I think someone was shot but not killed. I hope not.

What do you think led to to the breakup of Killing Floor?

Just lack of success – lack of work – lack of money. We’d started off in the ‘Blues Boom’ of the late sixties but that had declined quickly, so by 1972 we were a bit lost. We’d been finding work in Europe, but as I said, the scene hadn’t really developed at that time. So we’d tried to ‘go progressive’ but that didn’t really seem to work for us in the UK.

If I have one regret it’s that I didn’t push to get the band over to the States. Our first album had been released there on ‘Sire’, who were a new small label then, but part of ‘London’ which was a major label. When we asked our manager about an American tour he shrugged it off. I should have taken things into my own hands and written to Sire directly – I think if we could have got over then we would have had some success in the vein of Savoy Brown or Foghat. In fact I remember popping into one of Foghat’s rehearsals before they left for the States. I think we were borrowing an amp or something. And we’d seen Savoy Brown come back from their first tour with far more confidence and charisma than they’d had before. So all the signs were there. We should have pushed harder. But then, it’s easy to say with hindsight.

Next came a revamped Toe Fat with Cliff Bennett. How long does that last?

Only about six months, but it was a busy time. We did a lot of work and toured in England and Scotland with The Pretty Things. Cliff had a single out ‘Brand New Band’ which looked like it was going to chart, but in the end it didn’t and the whole thing fell apart pretty quickly after that.

John Bryant, “Go-Girls” and equipment blowing up. Explain.

Just one of those jobs you get offered. John Bryant was a friend of Bill’s and had a deal with Polydor. So he got this gig to go up to Bristol and appear in a TV Series that was being made called Go-Girls. It was a kind of light weight adventure / romance thing about a team of go-go dancers travelling around having adventures. I was recruited as guitarist and was told it was going to be a scene in a disco where everything goes wrong and starts blowing up. And I was given a guitar with explosives attached and the instruction ‘when I count to three make sure your strumming hand is in the up position..”. OK. So I duly followed instructions and mimed away until the set went bang bang bang around me including my guitar. I survived with both hands intact. I saw the video but again I’d love to get hold of a copy. The same day the whole production went bust and ground to a halt, so Go-Girls never made it to the screen.

Next comes Daddy Longlegs. So you had posted an ad in Melody Maker?

These were kind of wilderness years. I was out of work, broke, bored, but only still about 23 years old. Daddy Longlegs had previously had major record deals but were reforming from scratch, and I got involved.

You guys toured and played quite a bit. Special gigs you remember?

We did a lot of work including three tours of Holland and one of Sweden and Denmark. But it was all small-time stuff – little clubs etc and we never got hotels! Cliff, the bandleader, liked to save money so we always slept on peoples’ floors. It was an exhausting year!

Did you enjoy playing in Panache?

Panache! One of the most mis-named bands in history! It was a kind of prog band – the other guitarist was a kind of Robert Fripp, very good and a very nice guy. But the whole thing lacked stage presence – our gigs were dismal. We got booed at one of them I remember. To be honest I was just there for my weekly pay packet, via a couple of dodgy looking business men who dropped in once a week to check on us. Later I got my friend Mac in on bass, and we got Blue Cheer’s drummer, but it still didn’t go anywhere.

SALT

1975 – Next comes SALT with you and Stevie Smith. Since the name is in all caps, does each letter stand for something?

No, we just thought it didn’t look big enough on posters, so we went for all caps. And later we put dots in which I’ve always regretted. Don’t mess about with names!!

But it was an excellent band – Stevie was a charismatic front man and great harp player. You could feel from the very first gigs that there was an energy there between the band and the audience, and we soon built a strong following.

The band got a residency at The Marquee Club. That’s when you’re doing well as a band.

Yes, they were really good nights – we could pretty much fill the place and it was always exciting – playing this place where I’d previously seen Jeff Beck, Cream etc.  But by the time we paid for van, PA, manager, agent etc we’d end up with £5 each! That’s the Big Time for you.

But your guitar was stolen, but returned months later?

We played a gig in Leeds, Northern England, and my guitar disappeared from the dressing room. So for about nine months I used borrowed Les Pauls on the gigs while I was saving up my money. Then we went back to the same club and someone tipped us off about the guitar – we went round to some guy’s house in the middle of the night and he handed it over. He’d stripped all the red finish off so I’ve left it like that – actually I prefer it.

And you guys got to play the Reading Festival.

That was a great afternoon – the biggest festival in the UK at the time. We were on early but we had the crowd and we really ripped it up. Good memory.

1978 – you got married and left the UK for California.

Well – punk and new wave was coming in in the UK and I didn’t feel that bands like ours were going to get anywhere. I was married to an American, so I thought let’s go and see what possibilities there are over there.

A bit of a culture shock?

Yes, pretty strange. I was immediately horribly homesick which I hadn’t expected. But we got an apartment in West Hollywood, right off The Strip, so it was exciting in a way. I appreciated a lot about the U.S. – a lot of things worked better than back home. The phones were efficient – you had all night TV pizza deliveries! We had none of that. And I travelled around a bit to Malibu and up to San Francisco. But it was ultimately boring – the music scene was all rock harmony bands trying to be the next Foreigner or something. Not much blues in L.A. at that time.

I didn’t realize you auditioned for Badfinger. One of my all time favorite bands. Of course this was after Pete Ham had passed.

Yes, we rehearsed for about three days – they had a new record deal with Elektra. But ultimately I wasn’t right for them – I’m a blueser not a pop player. I remember them jamming a Beatles medley and it was brilliant, but that’s not me. They were a nice bunch of guys and I’m sorry they were plagued with such bad luck and tragedy.

You moved back to London after a year in L.A. Then you started up your own band, The Mick Clarke Band.

Yes, back to grimey, smelly old London. This was before it all got cleaned up in the 80s. I worked with a new version of SALT for a bit but I had a yearning to make my own music as well, so I did a demo and recruited some friends including Lou Martin and Rod De’Ath (Rory Gallagher Band) to play on it, which they did gladly.

With demo in hand, after approaching 22 record companies, you finally got a bite with an Italian label, Appaloosa – the label that your first 3 albums came out on.

Yes, that was a buzz, getting an acceptance letter from Milan. And for an album – I was just hoping to record a single. When I finally got sent the finished vinyl, the cover said ‘Mick Clarke Band’ so I thought – oh, I suppose I’d better form a group then! And then I had to learn to sing and front it – terrifying!

In the late 80’s how did you get to tour the west coast? Recollections?

We were playing a little pub in East London, and the landlord told me on the phone that there was an American band in town and the manager was looking for bands to take back to the States. So I was there that night with an album under my arm. That was The Rockin’ Razorbacks and their manager the late Steve Hettum. So I ended up in Portland, Oregon, living in the bass player’s basement. He’s been a good friend ever since. And we did well in and around Portland – up to Seattle, down to LA. We opened for Johnny Winter one night – that was great. Another time we played with Canned Heat and I got to meet Hank – Henry Vestine the Sunflower! But ultimately Steve said he couldn’t take us any further – he was just a local promoter – and I never made a profit from those trips. We started getting lucrative offers from Central Europe so that became our main thing.

How was it working with the legendary producer Mike Vernon on 1989’s Steel & Fire album?

I was honoured to work with Mike and I learned a lot. He was a good engineer as well as producer and had a practical approach. If the band was arguing about a minor aspect of the music he’d say “well will it affect sales?”, that kind of thing. In other words, just get on with the job. I see he’s living in Spain now and fronting his own blues band, so good luck to him.

Talking With the Blues

Throughout the first few years of the band, the albums sell pretty well. Talk about how the changes in the music industry in the mid 90’s began to hurt album sales.

Well we were riding high, relatively, and our new album ‘Roll Again’ had good advance sales, but home computers were coming in and people were making their own CD copies. After the initial advance sales everything just ground to a halt. Record sales were reduced to a tenth of what they had been, and many record company and record shop people that I knew were really struggling. So that was the start of it, and here we are now with streaming being the main thing.

At the beginning of the new millennium, take us through what transpired to reunite the Killing Floor and produce an album?

That was old Franco Ratti from Appaloosa Records, who’d given me that first album break. He said why didn’t Killing Floor do a re-union album? At the time Killing Floor seemed like ancient history to me – I hadn’t seen some of the guys for years. But anyway, we got together and everyone was really in to it. We couldn’t find Bazz initially, so we recruited Chris Sharley on the drums, but Bazz eventually showed up, living in Switzerland, and came over and played on a couple of tracks.

The album Zero Tolerance came out in 2004.

It did pretty well, for the time. Sold a few thousand and got good reviews.

Did you think there would be a demand for product from the band after all those years?

Funnily enough yes – the original albums had always been re-issued and had established a bit of a cult following. And there was the novelty value – quite a story, reforming after 32 years.

And you also got requests for playing festivals around Europe.

Yes, we did a bunch of festivals – all good. Italy, Belgium, Germany. Plus a couple of rock cruises out from Stockholm, floating around in the Baltic. That was fun. And later Sweden Rock Festival which was brilliant.

Germany 2004

In 2007 you moved from London to what you call “The Surrey Badlands”. There you built your own home recording studio.

It was time to get out of London and we were able to get a nice detached house here in the Surrey / Sussex countryside with a big garden. I found a space to have my home studio, which I intended to use just for finishing off tracks recorded in proper studios.

But after a while I tried recording with a drummer using an electronic kit and it worked well, so then I thought maybe I could do the whole thing myself, and my strange solo recording career started!

How many albums have you recorded at “Rockfold”?

I’ve lost count. Maybe eleven? Twelve? Probably more. It’s all a bit ridiculous, but the trouble was, they did quite well! And I really enjoyed my new recording regime and kept getting more ideas for new tracks. So they just kept coming. And as I’ve said before, it’s my therapy as much as anything. I’ve noticed that when I take a break I can start to get a bit down – a few hours in the studio and I’m buzzing again!

And you also reformed SALT for a series of shows. How well did those go down?

That was the suggestion of a London promoter, Pete Feenstra. So we did a couple of local tours and it was a lot of fun. Some of the old crowd turned up. Not quite as noisy as they used to be, but it was still good.

When did you play at the Mostar Festival in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

In 2017 I got a call from my friend Dragan, who’s actually a big-time promoter – puts on all the top names. He was involved in a little blues festival in this exotic town of Mostar, which to my shame I’d never really heard of. Anyway, I flew over there with my wife and we worked with a rhythm section from Belgrade, who I already knew. And it was a great trip – a really beautiful place, great people, an excellent gig. And I learned a lot about the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina a few years ago – I really hope the region can maintain peace in the future.

Interesting doing these interviews the connections I find. I had a recent chat with Damian Katkhuda of The Mostar Diving Club. Do you know of him or the band? He’s in London. His relatives come from that area and the band is named for the people who jump off the Mostar bridge.

No I don’t think I know Damian, but we went on the bridge. Very steep walking up and down that thing – I didn’t jump off. It was blown up by a tank during the war but beautifully rebuilt.

Mumbai 2014

I’ve had a listen to the new album, The Blues, Man, Rides Again! I like the tracks with the slide guitar.

Good.

I’ll mention a few of my favorites and you give me your thoughts.

“Turpentine”

Based on the feel of The Stones’ ‘Midnight Rambler’, and with lyrics inspired by Howlin’ Wolf’s ‘I Asked for Water’, oh she brought me gasoline’. And I’d actually released the track previously as “Gasolene” – I was just being lazy. But I thought the track deserved a more original title, so I just changed it to Turpentine. I think I got away with it!

“Good to Go” – some tasty licks on this one

Yes, the slide’s nice on that. That’s my 1930s Harmony archtop with a De Armond pickup, same type that Elmore James used. And on this track I stuck to strict Elmore tuning, which I don’t normally do – sounds good.

“Preachin’ to the Choir”

Thank you. A good song I think. And pretty much jammed live in the studio as much as possible – I think it has a good feel.

Preachin’ to the Choir

“I Sing Um The Way I Feel” – reminds me of early ZZTop

Thanks again – this was a song by JB Lenoir, one of the first blues tracks that I ever heard. And I always remembered it as a boogie so that’s how I treated it, although when you listen to the original it was more laid back. Anyway I like it, and it’s on permanent rotation on Sirius XM’s Bluesville, which is good.

“Doing the Best I Can” – I like the organ

Well I love doing the keyboard parts – especially the organ. You can get great effects from playing something really simple and just hitting that rotary button at the right time. I haven’t got room for a real Hammond, but I get a pretty good sound out of our old Roland keyboard.

Thank you Mick for your time and for sharing some great memories.  Sorry the video chat didn’t work out. 

Thanks, Greg, for your interest in my music. I enjoyed our brief video chats through the break-ups etc and hope we can speak again soon. Keep Rockin!

Mark Bandola of The Lucy Show

The Lucy Show were a post-punk rock band formed in London, England by 2 expats from Canada.  Mark Bandola (vocals, guitar, keyboards) and Rob Vandeven (vocals, bass) shared most of the writing and lead vocals.  Rounding out the unit were Pete Barraclough (guitars, keyboards) and Bryan Hudspeth (drums).  During the mid-80’s the band released 2 albums, double digit singles and a compilation album in 2011.  After disbanding in the late 80’s, both Mark and Rob have soldiered on recording under different monikers and projects.  Mr. Bandola was a member of Ausgang for a time and has recorded as solo project Typewriter.  More recently, Mark formed psych/instrumental duo The Ramsgate Hovercraft – and has started a musical collaboration with Adrian Sherwood. 

Welcome Mark.

Where were you born?  Talk about some fond memories of your childhood.

I was born and grew up in Winnipeg, Canada, living there until I was about 15.  All my pleasant memories of growing up are from those days.  As an adult I now have a love for the changing of seasons, which, in the Canadian prairies, harshly distinguish the times of the year.

Do you recall music being played in the house when you were a child?

A transistor radio was played a lot of the time – way up, out of reach, on the top of the fridge, and my Mum and Dad kept a few easy listening LP’s lying around, but mostly no – home wasn’t really a musical setting. Not until the youngsters started getting their way.

Were either one of your parents musically inclined at all?

My Dad’s side was not musical, but my Mum and her side of the family – who were all raised in the church – were all pretty adept at piano, and Mum sang in our church choir.

What about the first 45 or album someone bought for you?  Do you remember the first vinyl you bought?

Two distinct memories indicate my shift from “infant” to “kid”. I was quite obsessed with the Peter Paul & Mary recording of ‘Puff the Magic Dragon’ – right around the same time as The Beatles appeared on Ed Sullivan – thereby transporting my imagination and childhood aspirations into another zone.  I actually never bought a record with my own cash until I NEEDED to own ‘Penny Lane’ and I only located that on the North American release of ‘Magical Mystery’.  I spun the 11 or 12 songs on that album endlessly.  Not a bad first investment if I may say.

What were some of the bands you were into as a teen?

I was fiercely devoted to the Fab Four in terms of collecting disques, but loved many a tune on the radio. I bought and still adore ‘Crimson and Clover’ by Tommy James & Shondells, and ‘Baby Now That I Found You’ & ‘Build Me Up Buttercup’ by The Foundations.  ‘Resurrection Shuffle’ by Ashton Gardner and Dyke – loads of The Supremes tunes.  I was more pop directed although I was, and remain, a champion of The Who.

First concert?

The first time I heard a live rock group was at a Winnipeg high school dance held in a gymnasium – and the sheer resoundingness of the whole room was bloody impressive.  I went to see a group called Crowbar, who were an ex back up group for Ronnie Hawkins after The Hawks – but the group that really rattled my brains was finally seeing Cheap Trick in 1976 or ’77.  They had all the right musical ingredients.

Were you in a band in Canada?

No.  I somehow never managed to get it together.

So you and Rob Vandeven were friends growing up?

I met Rob in my last year of high school and we remained friends, sharing musical appreciation, while I spent a couple of years studying fine art at Alberta College of Art. Rob being a couple years younger was still finishing high school.

At what age did you both relocate to England and why?

I had spent my whole life feeling like a stranger in a strange land in Canada.  My Mum was English (from East Sussex) and, combining that tenuous link, with the lure of the British music scene, there seemed to be a calling, so in 1978 I finally escaped. Because I was a rather naive 21 year old my innocence allowed me to make such a grand upheaval. during the initial spell, I kept in touch with school friends, Mr. Vandeven included, and he decided to leave Canada about a year later.  Within  a year of his arrival, we got Midnite Movie rolling.

So The Lucy Show was formed in 1983, originally called Midnite Movie.  Why the name change to The Lucy Show?

Midnite Movie was good schooling but we were still in need of a clear direction.  The change happened when Rob opened the floodgates on his own songwriting. His musical dominance of the group sound coincided with his idea we call the band The Lucy Show.  A necessary and excellent moniker.  I still think it is a really fine name for a music outfit.

Your first single, “Leonardo da Vinci” got some airplay, particularly championed by John Peel.

Indeed.  He and his producer John Waters gave us a mighty heave ho up the ladder.

Was it the strength of this song that helped you get the recording contract with A&M?

The effect of that legendary DJ cannot be overestimated.  Peel’s support actually made the rest of the British recording and publishing companies take a big interest.

How did the band land a support slot on R.E.M.’s ’84 UK tour?  Memories of that tour? 

A one off show with REM in Worthing, south England, allowed us to meet.  REM seemed to take a liking to us straight away.  The Lucy Show were already big fans of ‘Murmur’. From what I understand, when they planned their tour, they, being on IRS, had their manager Jefferson Holy get in touch with A&M to see if we wanted the job.  The tour was exciting and no group could ask for more encouragement than what we received from Buck and Stipe.  They would console us when the University cool kids weren’t giving us our due.

Where did you record the debut album …undone?  How did the sessions go?

Recorded in Camden Town in North London in early 1985.  It was very exciting, and a big learning experience for the group.

Released in 1985, the album did get pretty favorable reviews, even topping the CMJ album charts in the US!

Ahhhh…the college radio scene was a wild and wonderful thing. A godsend to the slew of acts cruising the post punk/new wave thing at the time.

The first Lucy Show track I heard was “Ephemeral (This is No Heaven)” on a local alternative radio show.  The song is probably my 2^nd favorite on the album.  “Resistance” is my top pick.  I like at the halfway point where the vocals are elevated “What you need, what you take is bound to make a difference” and then the “She’s got it” repeated out towards the end.

Rob was a very inspired songwriter at that point.  Although he was newer to the role of songwriter, he seemed to find his muse very easily – I learned a lot back then, about embracing non traditional (ie. 1960’s) arrangements.

“Resistance” (The Lucy Show)

Why did A&M drop you?

A new managing director was brought in and he decided to completely clear the decks of any recent non profiting artists on the roster.  It was the start of the finale for A&M UK – all it kept going with was Sting, Chris DeBurgh, Janet Jackson and other mainstream acts.  I believe the USA label were pretty upset about us being dropped as they really cared for us.

In 1986 your sophomore release, Mania, was released on Big Time Records.  How was it working with John Leckie?

John remains one of the most talented people I have had the luck to encounter.  He cobbles together and hones sound purely on instinct, or as they say, “on a gut level”.  His enthusiasm and energy within a control room helped us to make that an exciting time in the studio for the group.  Sometimes unusual suggestions, but almost always pushing us to be more inventive.  You can hear it on a lot of those LP tracks. For me, getting a feel for the way Leckie conducted sessions proved a massive eye opener as regards taking risks and trusting one’s intuition.

The album was well received and MTV played a couple of tracks off the album.  My favorite songs on this release are “Sad September” and “Melody”.

Re. ‘September’….although Vandeven is the composer of that song, Leckie could almost have claimed a credit for arranging it.  His patience to have us keep the song evolving finally brought it to the feel of what was eventually released.

Well bad luck seemed to follow the band.  Big Time went bankrupt.  You and Rob released one last single in ’88 and called it a day.

If it’s possible for artists to be bruised by the corporate side of things, then that was where we were at back then. I can’t speak for Rob but I don’t recall our final sessions or the last release a happy or optimistic time.  Depression, frustration and anger set in. 

You collaborated with Mitch Easter on your 1993 EP ‘Til Tuesday.

Through various UK and USA touring encounters, Mitch and I struck up an amazing rapport and a great admiration for each other as songwriters.  When I got to go and record with him at Drive-In Studios in Winston Salem it was, and remains, one of the most exciting musical times of my life. That chap has an all encompassing understanding of art and music. A shared sense of absurd humour came into that collaboration as well.  

How did you come to join post-rock band Ausgang?  How long were you a member?

That group was really shortlived.  It was four of us: Rob Lord of The Primitives, Karl Shale of The Colourfield and The Candyskins, Martyn Barker of Shriekback, and meself.  We got one CD together (from inspired jam sessions) called ‘Electric-Arc’. Very atmospheric and, dare I say it, post rock.

You released a trio of CDs under the name “Typewriter” from the period of 2003 to 2010.  How would you categorize the music?  Was this a chance for you to sort of break out of the Lucy Show “mold” and stretch your wings musically?

“Gangway” (Typewriter)

Well I am always going to feel very passionate about that project – which I am still working on – Typewriter felt like I was vaguely able to finally jump around from one style, or even genre to another, and wherever my imagination could take me.

This was mostly a solo effort, but who were some guest musicians you used?

Well besides ex Lucy Show Rob V, there was Roddy Lorimer (trumpet player from New Message) Martyn and Rob from Ausgang,  John Morrison (bass) from John Peel faves, Hefner, sax player Ian Richie from Liverpool post-punk group Deaf School.  Over the three albums there are a variety of guest spots. 

The Ramsgate Hovercraft.  What a name!  Who is Kit Jolly and how did you 2 come to work together?

Like Typewriter, I chose Ramsgate Hovercraft as a moniker because it is an object that, at one time, represented the future, but is now antiquated.  The music represented my continued interest in psychedelic & progressive music as well as my increased interest in jazz and free form music.  It felt natural to step away from vocals and lyrics for a while.  Kit Jolly was a Ramsgate town non-professional, but really imaginative musician, and we were able to bounce ideas off each other – same applied to other local people, Paul Naudin and Paula Frost, who eventually joined up.  We self released a few LPs and played quite a few local shows.  

Over your music career have you enjoyed more the composing/songwriting process or performing live?

I am very much a studio person, and not so inclined to play or even attend concerts most of the time.  They can be exciting and sometimes full of good surprises but I am most at home with the creative process, playing a piano or bass, or the experimenting with effects that the recording process brings. The guilty pleasure of excessive overdubbing!!

So what’s been keeping you busy these days?

Pleased to say I am busy at moment, working on new Typewriter material for future release, as well as collaborating with dub reggae producer Adrian Sherwood on music for posthumous releases by Lee ‘Scratch” Perry, Creation Rebel, as well as Panda Bear and Sonic Boom (ex Animal Collective and Spacemen 3 respectively).

“In Another World” (Typewriter)

Any musical works in progress or on the horizon?

More Typewriter – and a couple of other things in the infantile & embryonic stages.

Well, thank you much Mark for your time and best wishes to you always.

Vic Godard

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Happydeadmen with Magnus Karlsson

Happydeadmen were a Swedish indie pop band formed in 1988. Pioneers of a jangly pop aesthetic with lots of melody that would influence many upcoming bands in the following decade and beyond. Upon listening to this band, one will naturally hear The Smiths influence in both vocal inflection and guitar sound. But there are also some of the leanings of Sarah Records artists and visiting familiar territory as various bands on The Sound of Leamington Spa recordings. Happydeadmen featured the songwriting talents of singer Jan Hedin and guitarist Magnus Karlsson with Roger Kjellgren on bass and Thomas Kristoffersson on drums. These Swedes left us with 4 studio albums, 5 singles and EP’s and a compilation album. Magnus has agreed reflect back on the band’s history.

Magnus, thank you for taking time out to answer a few questions.

Where were you born?

I was born in a small town in the south of Sweden called Vetlanda in the ‘60s.

Was your childhood a fairly happy one?

It was undramatic. No frictions. We moved around until we ended up in Stockholm. Things were tougher there, but no way near problematic.

Do you remember hearing music being played in the house when you were young?

It was mostly radio. My dad started buying records when I was 9 or 10. I remember him playing ELO, Eagles and The Doors. I found The Beatles by myself and then came punk.

Were either of your parents musicians?

No. My mother used to sing in the ‘60s. Not professionally.

What music and artists did you like as a teen?

In my early teens I was into older stuff like The Beatles, Neil Young, Velvet Underground, Zeppelin (only 10 year old stuff at the time) and later around 17 I went on to more contemporary artists like Joy Division/New Order, The Cure, Simple Minds, Japan…and of course in 1983/84 I heard The Smiths.

Can you recall one of the first concerts you attended?

I was 9 or 10 and some relatives took me to a free concert with the German kraut band Amon Düül II. It was so loud I was ill for three days.

What was the music scene like in Sweden during this time?

ABBA versus prog basically.

When did you learn to play guitar? Did you take lessons or self-taught?

I took some lessons and learned the basics, then I dropped out and developed my own skills.

Were the Happydeadmen your first band?

No, but three of us got together early on through different bands in school.

Talk about how the band formed.

Happydeadmen was formed in the spring of 1988 when a fourth guy joined the three of us who actually could sing, Jan Hedin. From there everything went fast.

Who came up with the name of the band?

We brainstormed by reading album & song titles to each other. Someone went through Echo & The Bunnymen’s Crocodiles and reached the track “Happy Death Men”. Since we still had one foot in goth rock it had to be the band name. This was before we met the singer. Then we changed it to Happydeadmen as one word. That name was a curse later on since it wasn’t associated with the type of pop music we played. On the other hand it reflected us as persons.

What musical influences did each member bring to the band?

We decided to be a guitar based pop band. My favourite guitar player was Johnny Marr. Janne sounded like Lloyd Cole. I listened to bands like The Go-Betweens, House of Love, McCarthy and even more secret indie bands. We shared a love for The Byrds.

Can you recall any of your early live shows?

Actually, the first show we did was at the 1988 Hultsfred festival. As I said before, as soon as Janne the singer came along things went fast. We didn’t even bother to record a proper demo. We just taped ourselves rehearsing and sent it to the festival. They agreed to let us play. Other acts were Joe Strummer, Hunters & Collectors, Big Country, Nitzer Ebb, typical late ‘80s festival crowd pleasers. We played on a smaller a stage but it turned out that everyone who was someone in the Swedish alternative music scene was there so we had a kick start. Lotsa people attending that gig either started bands themselves or became fanzine writers. It was the birth of Swedish indie, August 9 1988.

Your first single, 1988’s “Silent Sigh City”, has to be my favorite Happydeadmen track. Talk about how the song came together.

It was during the summer of 1988. I had a porta studio. I simply played along with a song that Janne the singer had recorded. It turned out pretty good. The problem was that Roger the bass player was travelling around Europe and shouldn’t return until the day before the Hultsfred festival and we really wanted to play “Silent Sigh City”. Roger simply had to learn the new song from the tape the day before. A month later we recorded and released it DIY.

Magnus, I have to say here I really like the sound you got on your guitar on most of the band’s songs.

Thanks, it’s been my trademark sound since 1988. It’s basically compressor and delay.

B-side of the single, a tale of a jilted lover contemplating ending it all in a “Spectacular Way”, is also a nice track.

Yes, it was my way of dealing with a failed relationship a year earlier, but Janne had to sing it. Self pity make great songs.

In 1990 the band released the first album, Eleven Pop Songs. What do you remember from the recording sessions?

We flew down to the south of Sweden and recorded the first half of the album in October 1989. It was supposed to be a mini-LP, a format that we felt was the best way to put out our music on. A guy/fan paid for the recordings and then he got second thoughts and wanted us to record more material so it became a full LP. We returned to the same studio in February 1990 and finished the album. If you listen to it side 1 has a different sound than side 2. It’s the ‘80s and ‘90s on two sides. In between the sessions the Berlin wall came down.

Was the band pleased with the way the album turned out?

Not really. It was delayed and we lost interest in it and thought we could do a lot better. The guy who originally had paid for the recordings failed to strike a deal with a major company as he had promised. We knew he would fail since it wasn’t really mainstream stuff. It would have been better if he had released it on his indie label as fast as possible and maybe the mini-LP idea would have suited better. The tapes were shelved by spring of 1990. We continued making new songs, played some gigs and I became a father in June. It must have been around that time Ola from Ceilidh records phoned me and said that he had bought the master tapes and was ready to release the album. It took 6 months and then it was ready. We wanted to release our new stuff and instead we had to promote our “old” recordings. It took many years before I could listen to 11 Popsongs with a good feeling. We never thought it would stay on. 33 years later it’s still with us and I can live with that. I even like the sound of it. Some of the tracks are killers and would easily fit in with my own greatest hits album. It needed time and new generations.

“Ralph de Bricassart” from 1992 is about the priest from The Thorn Birds. This one should have been a hit! What happened?

The curse. We always suffered from bad timing and zero promotion. For some reason it just didn’t happen. There was a penalty and the keeper had left the pitch. It was just kicking the ball in to an open goal, but we hit the post. We had some airtime with Ralph, but it should have been a single. We even had two full pages in Sweden’s biggest newspaper in 1993 prior to the release of Game, Set, Match.

Your first 2 albums were independently released. 1997’s Bullfights Every Sunday was released on a major label, Polydor.

True, but we were already almost on a big label in Sweden. Universal paid for our recordings in 1996 of what became the third album. We could even include strings and a pedal steel player. In 1995 we went to Japan. They had a crush on Swedish pop and Edoya Records released our two first albums with Japanese translated lyrics and very nice art work. Happydeadmen played like 12 gigs and did TV shows. Things were going very well, but I think we lost our indie audience when the new album was released by Polydor. The album failed miserably and wasn’t even released anywhere else until 1998 by a Swedish indie label and with the title After the Siesta.

“A Lovesong” was a hit in Japan. I can definitely hear the Big Star influence on this one. It sounds like it could be a Teenage Fanclub track.

It was a single in Japan. It had some airtime. Our label mates The Cardigans were Priority 1 by that time. The big breakthrough never came, but we were lucky to have been flown over to Japan and treated like stars before all this. The backlash was hard on us.

When did the band call it a day? What were the reasons?

In 2002 for no other reason than growing apart and were fed up, bad luck (in our opinion) and the feeling that we had no future. By that I mean that the Swedish indie music scene was so strong in the early 2000 so you had to reinvent yourself to be a part of that. We had our peak in 1988-1993. We were still a great band in 2002, but people didn’t care. Since then the tide has turned. Today I guess we could do gigs for kids who weren’t even born in the ‘90s.

Magnus, what have you been up to since Happydeadmen? Are you still involved in music?

I formed a trio in 2004 called The Charade. We signed up with a label in New England, Skipping Stone, and released three albums in three years. Those were actually more “successful” than any of the Happydeadmen albums. It’s basically my guitar sound, programming and female voice. After that I had a long distance band with a guy from Australia and a real veteran bass player from the Chicago area – The Britannicas. We released two albums between 2010 and 2014. Since 2015 I’ve been involved with Small Imperfections. We rehearse every week. I think we’re pretty good. A power trio with light guitars.

Small Imperfections

Talk about family and your interests outside of music.

I work with music. My daughter goes to music high school. My wife is an opera singer. There are no interests outside of music.

Thank you for your time Magnus and best wishes to you.

And Also the Trees with Simon Jones

From rural beginnings in the West Midlands in 1979, And Also the Trees have broadened the musical landscape both in the UK and internationally over the last 43 years.  They are masters at creating a sonic palate of post-punk and gothic melodies imbued with lyrical poetry.  Inspiration comes via a scenic countryside close to their roots and hearts.  Lead singer Simon Jones along with his brother Justin on guitar have been there every inch of the way, seeing several lineup changes over the years and braving the cold winds of the music industry. Over 14 studio albums, 3 live releases, some 16 singles and EP’s, not to mention compilations and video releases, the band has consistently shared their musical vision and always on their own terms.  With a new album out, there is much to talk about.  Joining me for this conversation is Simon Jones.

Welcome Simon.

I always like to go back to the beginning.  And Also The Trees were formed in Inkberrow, Worcestershire.  Is that where you were born?

We were actually based in Morton – Under – Hill – a hamlet not far from Inkberrow which had a population that fluctuated between 17 and 33. It was an old farmhouse where my family lived. Justin and I were born in Birmingham and moved to the countryside in 1970 when we were children.  

From what you remember, was your childhood a fairly happy time?

Yes it was, I was bad at school but I had good parents and a good family. I had long blond hair and looked like a girl so I was teased and bullied mercilessly at school so I had to toughen up and stand my ground. I exaggerated this a bit once I reached adolescence but my childhood was generally happy.

Being 4 years Justin’s senior, was there much sibling rivalry growing up?

No, none really. We played together, invented games that were totally absorbing that involved a lot of imagination and creativity… toy soldiers, rubber monsters, cars – and we played a lot of football. When we moved to the countryside we played with the children of the farmers and farm labourers and got to know the countryside from their perspective too.

Do you recall early on music being played in the household?

Yes, I have an older brother and sister too who bought records and played them on our family ‘Gramophone’. My older brother Mark bought and played The Beatles albums  as they were released so musically they were my first love. Then my sister and I went halves on 7” singles which we bought from the local chemist shop in Birmingham. The first we bought was ‘Space Oddity’ when I was nine, then ‘All Right Now’ by Free and ‘Oh Well’ by Fleetwood Mac. Lucky really to have siblings with good musical taste. 

Can you remember your first album?

It was a long time before I had enough money to buy an album… and I’ve forgotten what it was… maybe something by The Who. I loved The Who. Or perhaps Futurama by Be-Bop Deluxe. 

How much of a musical influence did you have on brother Justin?

I don’t know. I generally liked what my sister liked and Justin liked what we liked. He was more into pop music whereas I was very proud to tell my friends at primary school that I liked a band called Led Zeppelin knowing very well they wouldn’t have heard of them. 

As a teen what bands did you like?

I was a big fan of The Who but I loved Bowie and the early Pink Floyd albums. I was into Rock and then in 1977 I got into Punk and that kind of changed everything.

What were the circumstances that prompted you to want to be a musician?

The dream was to be a footballer, preferably for Aston Villa or in a rock band. Both were equally unrealistic and unlikely until Punk Rock emerged and rock idols like John Lennon, Pete Townshend, David Bowie and Bryan Ferry were replaced by Mark Perry, Gaye Advert, Pete Shelley and Joe Strummer. And kids who weren’t trained musicians were getting up on stages and opening up. Then Justin sold his action men and bought an acoustic guitar and a Bert Weedon ‘Play in a Day’ book and strangely enough I suppose that was the start of it for us. 

What was your very first band?

And Also the Trees. I have another band called November with Bernard Trontin of The Young Gods which we formed in 2004 after I’d moved to Geneva. But that is the only other band I’ve been in. 

Justin took up guitar playing at an early age.

Yes, he started teaching himself when he was 14. I didn’t expect him to get this good.

Prior to forming the band that would become AATT, how long had you known Graham and Nick Havas?

Justin and Nick met at Inkberrow primary school when we moved out from Birmingham. They’re still best friends and see a lot of each other. I met Graham shortly after. He was even more out of control than I was and together we got into more trouble than we should have.

How interesting, 2 sets of brothers in one band.  At the time did the thought cross your mind that blood is thicker than water?

Well, there is more than one blood type.

Who’s “Dr.J” and how was he literally “instrumental” in helping design your equipment?

He was my brother in law, a Dr. of Science, parapsychology in fact. We didn’t have the money to buy any equipment and he helped us find stuff like speakers and amp parts and bits of wood and helped us make our own gear. He helped us make a vocal PA too so we didn’t have to be reliant on a PA company or a PA being in the venue. We played in the back rooms of pubs in the midlands and the sound was probably quite bad but we didn’t care. We just wanted to play.

What was ‘The Dairy’?

It was a small out-house where butter and cheese used to be made across the yard from the farm house we lived in.  There was an upstairs room that we soundproofed and used as out rehearsal room.

Justin was so young when you guys started out.  How did your parents feel about this?  Especially, when he was underage playing live gigs?

We were close to our parents in a very old fashioned sort of way. I think they were baffled by what we were doing. When they were growing up there was no youth culture so they had nothing to compare or relate it to. Our father had worked very hard and done very well in his work to rise up from nothing, to a point where he was able to buy an old house in the country. He wanted us to be able to do what we wanted to do. They just let us get on with things. If he heard me telling someone on the phone that I couldn’t go to the pub because I was broke he’d sometimes ask if I wanted to borrow a fiver and usually I’d politely refuse and we didn’t even consider asking for help to buy equipment. Concerning my little brother Justin playing in clubs he wasn’t old enough to get into… I don’t think they knew about that. It helped that our well educated brother in law had his eye on us. 

Speaking of gigs, you have a pretty memorable experience from your 2^nd show where a rather large contingent of skinheads showed up.

Yes, I wrote about this recently in my ‘notes on the formative years’ which we have on our website. It’s been interesting and enjoyable writing about that time. What you are referring to is when our original bassist, who was himself a skinhead at the time, told all his mates that he was playing a gig in our village at a young farmers do. Because of his initials being GPH and so similar to punk band GBH, the skinheads, who were generally high on testosterone levels and low on brain cells, went around saying GBH was playing in Inkberrow on Saturday night. The word got around to the Birmingham skins sparking an invasion of lads expecting to see the Oi punk band GBH. It turned into one of the more dramatic nights of our history.

So the story is The Cure were looking for an opening act for their upcoming tour.  You had made a demo tape from your first live gig and sent it to the band.  The Cure liked what they heard and asked you to join them on their 1981 UK tour.  Any special recollections from that tour?

It was very exciting in it’s own way. It was before The Cure were very famous and before we really knew what we were doing. I was 20, Justin and Nick 17. It was a very particular moment in the history of British underground music… the venues, the equipment, the audiences… For some reason I remember waking up early one cold sunny morning and going to the Edinburgh zoo.

Were you a big fan of Robert Smith’s group at the time?  What other bands were you into?

We were fans, yes, but very conscious of not being too clingy or sycophantic. They made that easy for us as they treated us as fellow musicians. We were into lots of stuff… The Banshees, Joy Division, The Bunnymen, The Fall, Suicide, Tom Waits, The Doors, Hendrix. We’d started to discover lots of underground 60’s psychedelic stuff too – and our first look into the massive and baffling world of jazz. But also classical, so lots of things really.

In ’82 Graham was replaced by Steven Burrows.  What led to this decision?

We had a big fight with Graham and that was the end of it. He was a bit messed up and anyway wanted commercial success right away. He wasn’t made to be a musician.

Talk about signing with Future Records.

We sent tapes all over the UK, even delivered them by hand in London. But we finally signed to a record company based in the Malvern hills which we could see on the horizon from our windows at home. 

Simon, I imagine the experience of recording for the first time in a studio can be a little overwhelming.  What do you recall?

Recording demos in semi-pro studios close to home made me feel like a charlatan. Recording in pro studios in London made me feel special and the quality of sound blew me away.

Your first single, 1983’s “Shantell” was actually the first AATT song I ever heard.  The Cure connection continues as Lol Tolhurst produced the single.  

Yes, Lol was great. Robert couldn’t do it because he was very busy and was becoming much sought after, so Lol offered to help. He did a really excellent job and was great fun to work with. I can’t imagine anyone else being better for us at the time.

I think the echoed “Shantell” throughout is what makes that song.  Who’s idea was this?

Probably mine. 

What was the listening public’s response to your 2^nd single, “The Secret Sea”?

I don’t know – in those days we didn’t get much feedback from the public – the ‘fan’ mail or letters came later and of course there was no instant gratification (or not) internet. It wasn’t a hit anyway – wasn’t up John Peels street and not pop enough to get played anywhere else.

Mr. Tolhurst also produced your first album And Also the Trees.  I still have my original vinyl copy.  Where was the cover photo taken?

Nick took that photo at Start point in Devon.

2 of my favorites on this album are “Shrine” and “Twilights Pool”.  What makes “Shrine” so unique is how you are reading prose/poetry rather than doing the standard verse/rhyme scheme.  And I’m guessing that’s a little Lol Tolhurst wizardry with the choral backing sound?

I always liked narrations… Hawkwind, Velvet underground, The Doors, Alternative TV… And yes, Lol was very good in the mix down room.

In “Twilights Pool” lots of effects going on.  The beginning sounds like a foghorn, then the echoey drums, horns, backward tape effects.  Lawrence’s ideas?  

Some of them were his ideas, yes. We re-issued this 1st album of ours last year as a double album with demos and singles from the time. And having not listened to the album for years I was pleasantly surprised at how good it sounded, especially the production. The songs were written when we were teenagers and I wasn’t sure how I’d feel about going back there. But it was OK.

The album must have struck a chord with John Peel who invited you to do a session in April of ’84.  Did you get to meet John?  Did this exposure help broaden your fan base?

No we didn’t meet him but I’m sure the session made a difference and reached a lot of people. He was important to us, he not only introduced us to a lot of music but he had a great broadcasting voice and style. He was actually more important than any one person should have been as his taste and decisions could make such a huge difference to bands. But that wasn’t all his fault.

I also still have my vinyl copy of A Room Lives in Lucy from 1985.  My go to track is “Scarlet Arch”.  Is that song about heroin?

No it’s not – although it could be I suppose if you wanted it to be. I never took heroin but I thought about it a lot.

From 1986’s Virus Meadow, I’ve always liked the lyrics in “Gone…Like the Swallows”.  Life is so fleeting…

I am still very pleased with those words. They came from a dream.

Any fond memories of your first European tour?

Many. It was very exciting just to go abroad. In the mid 80’s there was more diversity from country to country and far fewer motorways and bypasses so you got to see and really feel the foreign-ness of each town. The really striking thing for us though was that the audiences knew our material. We’d never really experienced that before and people in general in mainland Europe seemed to have a respect for musicians and artists you don’t get in the UK unless you are famous.

On the 1987 EP Shaletown I like the general feel of the song, but especially Justin’s guitar.

Good. He had developed his own quite unique guitar sound by that point.

The following year’s House of the Heart has to be one of the more “upbeat” AATT song I’ve heard.  

Yes, we always felt there needed to be a song that sounded like a single on an album back then and this was the ‘single’. 

But my favorite track from The Millpond Years (1988) is the beautiful instrumental “From the Silver Frost”.

It’s not the right thing to say to the singer. You know writing all those words nearly killed me and you say the one you like the best has no vocal on it. However, I think it’s my favourite on the album too.

The album cover on 1989’s Farewell to the Shade is so iconic to me, it’s the image that comes to mind when I think of AATT.  Almost like a painting.  Who’s idea was the concept?  Who was the photographer?

I think it was my idea. It’s taken in a room in the farmhouse where we lived, the room where I worked on the lyrics. I set up the lights and camera with Justin and we got someone, a friend or girl friend, I don’t remember, to take the pictures. Some people really didn’t like it – thought it too stylised or too obvious – but I think it’s OK. At least it’s where we lived and worked and we’re wearing clothes we wore most of the time. So it’s not THAT contrived. 

Really nice rendition of Cat Stevens’ “Lady D’Arbanville”.  I can’t decide which version I like better.  

Thank you. I certainly prefer the original Cat Stevens version. 

I also like “The Street Organ”.

There are some good pieces on that album. “Misfortunes” is almost a very good piece of music but it never quite lives up to it’s potential. 

However, my most treasured AATT piece is “Belief in the Rose”.  What can I say about this one that hasn’t already been said.  

Really? That’s interesting. It’s funny how different people who have followed our history have different favourites. “Belief in the Rose” was a track we revived for the acoustic album. It worked well in that context. 

In my opinion, the band really began hitting its stride in the late 80’s.  A much more full, mature sound on these last 2 albums.  

People have different favourite albums too. Some people, like Justin I think, are of the opinion that there is too much keyboard on them and they’re a bit over produced. But these things effect us all in different ways. My favourite albums are the ones since 2000. 

Simon, I’m sure many, like myself, have been drawn to AATT not only by the music, but also the visual mystique of your album covers, but also your attire.  I know your appearance has always been very important.  Talk about the look that you and Justin have bedecked yourself in.

We were very young punk rockers and dressing that way gave you an identity – I liked that. Punk was really more about a state of mind of course, but dressing in clothes unlike normal people felt good. It made me interested in style, not so much fashion. There was a mod revival in the UK directly after the punk scene fragmented and died down and I got into that as I’d always loved the Mod style. Then I started going to jumble sales in church halls where you could find suits from the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s for next to nothing and it felt good going around in demob suits or these marvelous 60’s Italian cut suits. It was about not looking like everyone else at the time. Then I came across a frock coat and Justin and I found a shop in Evesham, a local market town, that sold antique clothes for very little money. There we’d buy these beautiful old waistcoats and white shirts and look a bit like we’d walked out of a period drama. We felt there was something a bit fake about just dressing up like that for the stage so we wore these clothes as often as we could when we went out at night, down to the pub or wherever. And it wound some people up because people don’t like it when you step out of line like that, but I didn’t care. I thought I was pretty tough at the time and anyway, people got used to us looking like that and didn’t take any notice of us after a while. It was quite an odd time for me come to think of it. I was working on a pig farm most mornings, but in the same week I’d be off playing in European cities dressed in my frock coat and riding boots and all looking like some kind of English dandy from another time.  I toned things down when I felt it gave the impression that I wanted to be recognized in the street as the singer in AATT. The recognition was quite a thrill at first but then my ego calmed down and I preferred to be more anonymous.  

In 1990 you toured America.  Any recollections?

Yes plenty of good memories of that tour. And what stands out? Lovely people in Pittsburgh who put us on there and a great crowd there too. A back alley in Washington moving with what looked like a river of rats. Cool college radio in Boston. Our man who organized the whole thing, Norm Veenstra, big, handsome, scary looking giant of a man. Some very good shows in Chicago, Washington, and New York – where the hosts were the most condescending, arrogant people we’ve ever come across – so horrible and aggressive it was funny. Asking Norm as we drove past statues in the towns, “who’s the bad guy on the horse?” Seven people in the audience in Hoboken after an 8 hour drive in the snow and the long long drive across the big country to Chicago. 

1992’s Green is the Sea is almost like a collection of dark sea shanties.  “The Fruit Room” and “Jacob Fleet” are 2 of my favorites.

Strangely, I’d never actually noticed before how many nautical references there are in this collection of songs. My favourite is “Mermen of the Lea”, a gift of a song that came together out of the ether, vocally and lyrically, in about half an hour. Along with “Virus Meadow” it’s the song that takes me home most strongly, almost too strongly sometimes. 

The following year’s The Klaxon is a very nice album.  4 songs in particular I return to frequently are “Sunrise”, “Wooden Leg”, “The Dutchman” and “The Flatlands”.  

And this album we actually recorded by the sea in Cornwall in a bungalow overlooking a bay. The first time we recorded in a place that wasn’t a recording studio and hiring in all the equipment. It was a luxury being able to work whatever hours we wanted to and we often recorded late into the night and took time out to walk along the cliffs.

Now let’s talk about 1996’s Angelfish.  Quite a departure from the up to then “AATT sound”.  A concept album about Americana.  Was this in a way a “getting back to roots” album or a venue for Justin to flex his “R’n’r” wings a little?  I hear some film noir, jazzy, smoke-filled café riffs, but also some straight-ahead rock time signatures.  Some of the music reminds me of Nick Cave and the guitar like a Link Wray/Duane Eddy cross-mix.  

We had a very particular image and sound, like no one else, but by this time we felt we’d almost painted ourselves into a corner and needed to get out. As I’ve said, Justin’s guitar has always led the way with us and he decided to change his style and move away from that perception of being a romantic, pastoral English band. Of course this is what most of our admirers liked about us so leaving it behind wasn’t a wise career move. But we’d never really treated ‘And Also the Trees’ as a career – or at least I should say our priority wasn’t playing to the gallery. Anyway, Justin adopted this twangy guitar style as you accurately put it, like a Duane Eddy/Link Wray cross-mix, and I took that as my lead to take the wandering spirit of ‘And Also the Trees’ on that unlikely path into retro-Americana.

The lone surviving Havas brother Nick was replaced on drums by Paul Hill.  Reason(s)?

Nick needed a career that would give more financial stability. You can dedicate your life to music for so long but there are certain points when you have to make big decisions. As non conformist outsiders we’d accepted by this point that we’d never be able to live from music and Nick had anyway drifted away from us a bit musically too so it was the right time for him to leave. He remains a very close friend to both Justin and I.

At this point you set up your own label.  Talk a little about how important that was for you and AATT.

The music business was in a huge crisis so we decided the safest option was to have as much control as possible – getting the hell off a sinking ship in other words.

Silver Soul (1998) was the first release on your new label.  It continues with Justin’s “gunslinger” guitar sound.  The album reminds me of some of the Flaming Stars material who were recording around the same time period.  For my 2 cents worth, “Highway 4287” is the best track.

Hahaha ‘gunslinger guitar sound’ – love it! So, if we were leaving a sinking ship you could say this album was us clinging onto some driftwood. It could easily have been our last album. A lot had happened in our personal lives. We were in the process of leaving our Worcestershire home. Nick had left and I was moving to Switzerland. It’s not a bad album, it’s the end of an era for us though. We survived. 

Further From the Truth (2003) found AATT back in a more subdued, mellow(er) sound.  “Pale Sun” is a quality tune.  A point of reference for me on this album is perhaps some of the mellower Tindersticks material. 

I see it as the album where we let go of a lot of things. Our minds had been cleared of all thoughts attached to the music business. We had gone almost 5 years without playing live, our lives had changed, we had moved away from Worcestershire. And we didn’t know if we actually had an audience any more. We just decided to write another album even if it was for ourselves, like for the pure love of making music. It was like starting from the beginning again in a way and it was still as tough as ever to reach a point where we were happy with what we had but we got there. It was like a new beginning.  

In 2004 and 2005 you played several music festivals.  How did you like that compared to playing regular concert gigs?

Back then promoters thought we weren’t really a festival band. We’d played some big festivals back in the 80’s actually and they’d gone well but now we found we had a really strong pool of songs that worked well in the festival environment. We’re never going to be a ‘throwing beer around festival band’ obviously, but then and now we certainly bring something different and I’d like to think interesting or exciting to those kind of events. We like playing anywhere. It’s one of the beauties of this band, we can play, and do play and enjoy playing in all kinds of venues. Nowhere is too small and nowhere too big.

How did you and Bernard Trontin of Swiss Industrial band The Young Gods get together for “November”?

We were introduced to each other by the owner of a small record shop in our home town Geneva. Bernard had mentioned to him that he wanted to do an album with guest vocalists writing and singing parts to a lot of instrumental pieces he’d written and mentioned my name as a vocalist he would like to ask to contribute. He didn’t know I was living in Geneva but I’d been in the record shop and the owner had recognized me – so it came about like that. We’ve done two albums together now under the name ‘November’. 

For 2007’s (Listen For) The Rag and Bone Man you added a couple of new members.  Introduce Ian Jenkins and Emer Brizzolara.  

Steven had to leave for personal reasons – he went to live in the US, so Ian Jenkins joined us on bass. Emer had been playing with us on stage for quite a while but this was the first album she contributed to creatively. 

This release seems to mark a return to the darker/gothic AATT sound.  “The Beautiful Silence” is my top pick, but I also like “Domed” and “The Saracen’s Head”.  

Well personally “Candace” is my favourite and one of my top 5 favourite AATT songs, but I’ve seen over the years that fans’ favourite songs from the albums is very varied – probably a good sign. There is a lot I could say about all the albums. This is a very special album for us though, it was the beginning of what one could dramatically describe as our Renaissance. We’ve never been comfortable with being classed as ‘Gothic’ but if you broaden the term to include say the works of David Lynch, the music of Nick Cave and the works of Thomas Hardy, Cormack McCarthy, for example, then sure it is quite gothic. 

In 2009 you released a couple of acoustic albums.  How well received were these?

They were well received. This project took us to some amazing places and generated a lot of ‘media’ interest in the band. Media now had become something entirely different to when we were going through the 80’s and 90’s. It’s no longer the closed shop it was back then and for a band like us who had so few links or contacts to the old ‘Media’ and no record co. working for us, it was a much better situation. In the UK, for example, it wasn’t all about being played by John Peel or being in the NME anymore, there were other ways people could discover bands. That’s not meant to be dismissive of Fanzines where we had some great relationships. But by the end of the 80’s Fanzines had become less vibrant too. Or maybe we were no longer on their wavelength either. But we learnt a lot about music, our music and ourselves through the acoustic project. Some people absolutely loved those albums and others were unmoved. 

Hunter Not the Hunted (2012) follows in similar territory to the prior album.  A trio of songs that got my attention are “The Woman on the Estuary”, “What’s Lost Finds” and “Rip Ridge”.  

We were being informed by our experience with the acoustic albums here and I personally was taking influence from the writings of naturalists and consequently nature itself. If we’re mentioning specific tracks then my hand would be “Only” and “My Face is Here in the Wild Fire”.

Who did the artwork for the cover of 2016’s Born Into The Waves? 

A young artist called Anouk de Groot, well she was young then. We lost touch with her unfortunately. 

“Bridges” is a nice track, but the one that stays with me long after listening is “Boden”.

“Bridges” is one of my favourite AATT songs of all time and I think this is possibly our best album. It took us 4 years to write it so sweeping over it like this feels wrong – but still. 

Simon, talk about the current lineup of AATT.

Justin and I are founder members. Paul Hill joined us over 20 years ago and I’d describe his as ‘maverick’ – his presence prevents us from getting too serious about things. Grant Gordon and Colin Ozanne are quite recent members – they’re great as a band, live and creatively. I honestly believe we have never been better. I said to someone the other day “I am still as into all this as I ever was, even more perhaps… it makes me wonder if there is something wrong with me”.

Ok, new album The Bone Carver.  Talk details. What can we expect lyrically and aurally from this album?

This question is an interview in itself. And I’ve just done lots of them so the best would be to look on line as I can’t really repeat it all here and now. It was released in September and has had exceptionally good reviews and I’m very pleased. When it was finally finished and mastered and all I couldn’t hear it anymore and didn’t even know if it was any good, but apparently it is.

One question I forgot to ask you earlier is to list some of the authors and works that have been inspirational in your lyrics over the years.  

Huxley, Hardy, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, MacCarthy, Plath, Dylan Thomas, Faulkner – in small ways I think everything I’ve ever read has influenced me.

In looking back, does it seem like 4 decades plus? 

It seems like my whole life – which I suppose it is.

After the release of the new album what’s on the horizon for AATT?

We’ve been playing live in Europe and we have started on a new album. There is a lot in our diaries actually and the biggest difficulty is finding the time to do it. 

Any interests outside of music?

I am a photographer… was a photographer. I still take photographs with the intension of gathering them together for exhibitions and or a book one day. And I have a passion for Aston Villa football club which is more like a vice. I like gardening and walking and food. And Trees. 

Alright Simon, that about wraps it up.  Thank you so much for your time and willingness to take part in this “not so” little interview.  Best wishes and continued success to you and the band in the future!

Cheers

All the best

Simon

Robert Sekula of 14 Iced Bears

14 Iced Bears are a pop band oftentimes associated with the C86 scene. But the band are somewhat atypical of that sound, combining chaotic pop with a psychedelic 60’s slant. The band formed in 1985 in Brighton by Robert Sekula (songwriter, vocalist) and Kevin Canham (songwriter, guitarist). Through various lineup changes, Robert and Kevin have remained the core members. Although recorded output has not been the most prolific, 14 Iced Bears have consistently delivered quality songs and have a strong fan base to this day. Joining me for this little Q&A is Robert Sekula.

Welcome Robert.

The band formed in Brighton. Is that where you were born?

Hello Greg, no I was born Camberwell, South London.

What are your recollections of childhood?

Mainly playing football on council estates, writing songs – I can still remember one I wrote for my brother’s teddy bears – playing ‘war’, visiting our relatives in France and dreaming of falling in love.

Siblings?

Two brothers, I was the middle one.

Were either parent musically inclined?

My mum won a singing contest when she was young in the war and had always dreamt of being a singer, while my dad used to play the harmonica.

Do you remember music being played in the household?

Yes, When I was four, my teachers said I was musically talented when I tried out a xylophone. So my mum decided I should have private music lessons, which couldn’t have been easy, as we didn’t have a lot of spare cash around. I learnt the piano and recorder, practising for all the exams you had to go through. I wasn’t really into classical music though I did like Beethoven’s stuff. I gave out all up for the guitar when I was sixteen. My parents loved the old crooners, like Frank Sinatra, Andy Williams and Charles Aznavour, while I would often hear Led Zep, Yes and Marc Bolan blasting out from behind my older brother’s door. Bolan was the only one I really liked.

Can you recall your first 45 or album?

I think the first thing I bought was a cassette of either the Boomtown Rats or Gary Numan.

What bands did you like as a teen?

In my early teens I just loved the pop music I saw on TV and heard on the radio. Then, later on I got more into 60s pop, psychedelia, The Jam, the Teardrop Explodes and Echo and the Bunnymen.

First concert?

The Police at Milton Keynes Bowl.

Was there a favorite record store you would frequent?

On the way to Elephant & Castle, there was a shop called A2, which was the nearest place to where we lived, and also more of a punky/new wave one just further up the road.

Prior to 14 Iced Bears, were you in any bands?

I had a band in south London with my friend, Eddy, called The Storm or In a Dream. We had a drum machine and played a gig or two in front of our mates. When I got to university near Brighton, a few of us formed a band called the Velvet Underground and only played their songs, like “New Age” and “What Goes On”. Maybe one of the first tribute bands!!

Talk about the formation of 14 Iced Bears.  How were the members recruited? What influences did everyone bring to the band?

My main intention on going to university was to form a band. I had become friends with Nick Emery, and he decided to try the drums in the new band. He had quite a different, raw, style of playing. The other members were mainly through ads in record shop windows. It was only people with similar influences to us that we wanted.

Who came up with the name?  What is the meaning?

I wanted something that sounded a bit odd, like the Bunnymen or the Teardrops names. I used to say it was something that happened to me as a kid, to confuse people. But really it was a packet of biscuits called 15 Iced Bears, which I amazingly morphed into 14, due to the fact that I loved that number as it was Johan Cruyff’s one when he played football for Holland or Ajax. When I first saw the Dutch team, I was blown away by this bunch of long-haired bead-wearing geniuses who magically blew other teams away.

Photo courtesy of Sue Freeman

How did you come to sign with TV Personality Mark Flunder’s Frank label?

He saw our first gig with that line-up at Sussex Uni and thought our song “Jumped in a Puddle” was an instant mod classic. We released Inside instead as I thought “Jumped in a Puddle” was a bit too commercial and catchy (and not moddy!).

You cut a couple of singles on Frank, 1986’s “Inside” and ‘87’s “Balloon Song”. Were you surprised at the positive response to these releases?

I was especially delighted that John Peel was into the first single and gave us a session. I can’t say I was surprised because I had been hopeful that it would happen. I was just very happy that some people liked it.

Actually, I like the b-side of “Balloon Song”, “Like a Dolphin”.

The title was sort of a joke on Like a Virgin but no one got it, typical!

You followed this up with a UK and European tour.  What are your memories of the tour?

Did we?  I don’t actually remember us doing a tour. We just got gigs as they were offered, we didn’t organise it really.

The press was particularly kind to the band.  Any reasons you think as to why?

I don’t think they were particularly kind. We got ridiculous reviews that said the music was great but the name was too bad. It’s a bit sad and one-dimensional when people say that – it still happens now. Our best press came from fanzines, the writers were more engaged in the music and were not just doing it to get paid.

When were the Peel Sessions?  Did you meet John?  How did the sessions go?

The Peel Sessions were at the end of 1986 and the beginning of 1987. We’d changed line-up in-between, with just Kevin and me in the band for both. We didn’t meet Peel there but I’d chatted to him on the phone before. I actually bumped into him on the street in London about ten years later. It was amazing to play our stuff in BBC studios and the producers were great. We had Dale Griffin, who’d been in Mott the Hoople, producing and he said he really liked “Cut”, which cheered me up no end! After the second session we managed to break the van key in its lock and we had to sleep on the floor of the BBC foyer!

Why did you switch to Sarah Records to record your 3rd single “Come Get Me”?

They offered to do us a single and I loved the Sea Urchins stuff. We‘d drifted apart from Mark a bit so the timing was perfect.

What was “Thunderball Records”?  I take it was named after the James Bond film?

It was a one-person label by someone in Harlow, Graeme. When he was introduced to me at a party for the first time, he headbutted me! I’d met people from Essex before, so I knew this was normal for them (only joking!). He became a good friend after a while and set up tours in Europe for us, which nearly ended in disaster van-wise but that’s another story! I think it was named after James Bond, but have no idea.

Then in 1988 came your first album, the eponymously titled release.   My favorite track is the mellow “Hay Fever”.

Yeah that one came out well, thanks. It was recorded in a tiny basement in North London in the heat of the summer, and we all caught colds! I think there’s a claustrophobia that eeks through the recording of the whole album.

Both 1989’s “Mother Sleep” single and ’91’s “Hold On” are quality tracks, psych assaults on the senses.

Thanks a lot. We weren’t really listening to indie stuff at the time, we all were more into 60s psyche, like the 13th Floor Elevators, and 70s guitar stuff like Big Star, so that came across a lot more.

Your 2nd album Wonder came out in 1991.  I’ve always liked “When It Comes”.  

At last someone likes that one! That’s my favourite one probably out of all the Bears songs written. I play it today in my solo set, and it’s even now still difficult! I’ve done a changed version of it so am thinking of putting that on my new album.

Between 1991 and 2010 was there any activity?

In about 2000 Slumberland released the compilation In the Beginning, and about two years later I went across to play on the US east coast, with Tim from the Wonder album and a couple of friends. We played a mix of Bears and my solo stuff: New York, thanks to Gail from Chickfactor, Philadelphia and Boston, where we managed to break Ladybug Transistor’s keyboards through the amp vibration! They took it well and we remained friends.

Ok, so the band reformed in 2010.  You toured the east and west coat of the US. How did these go?

Tim, Graham the drummer and I went over after being invited by people on the internet in the US. We initially played New York, Philadelphia and Northampton MA. It was great fun and Tim made a two-part video of it. Here is the first part.

So we thought, let’s try the west coast… people we knew got us on tour for a bit of it with Phil Wilson and the June Brides, so that was great. We just drove up and down the coast in a hired car, a great adventure, playing SF, Sacramento, Portland, Seattle and LA, where we recorded what became the Three Wishes collection with the June Brides and Aberdeen, in Robert from the Brian Jonestown Massacre’s studio. It really worked as a three-piece live and, once we were in the swing of it, was probably the best we’ve ever sounded.

In 2013 Cherry Red released a 2 CD retrospective, Hold on Inside.  Did you notice if this helped to solidify and/or broaden your fan base?

I don’t really know actually but it was great to get virtually everything on a collection with great art work too.

Robert, your first solo single “Not Santa Claus” came out in 2019.  I like the tempo and the echoey guitar.

Thanks, once that chorus had found its way into my head, it wouldn’t go away so I felt I had to release it or it would have driven me mad. It was using motifs of Christmas to make a point, it’s not a Christmas record! In my more imaginative moments, I think it actually predicted Covid! It would take too long here but any time someone wants to ask I’ll happily explain why. I’ve done a new version for my forthcoming album.

Your 2nd single was just released at the end of June.  How is “Pamela” being received?

It’s had some lovely reviews, with one saying it was the best single of the year so far. Unfortunately it hasn’t had any radio play from people like BBC 6 music, even though they still play the Bears sessions, which is a touch frustrating, but hey never mind.

How do you compose a song?  Where does your inspiration come from?

A tune or line of words seems to pop into my head and if I still like it after a few days, I start working on the rest of what the song might be. I don’t sit down with a determined thought to write about something normally. I prefer not to get too involved in a controlled, mental way but keep the space open for things to emerge. I don’t know where it comes from, I like to think it’s some kind of mystical link to a higher consciousness but, who knows?

The latest thing I’ve written, which I’ll probably put on the album, is a one-line chant with loads of weird effects around it!

In the past, what studio did you like recording in the most?

The one that I felt the recording went best was maybe this little studio in Kemptown, Brighton, where we recorded “Summer Nights”, The Grease cover. I think we recorded some other stuff there but it was so long ago I’ve forgotten, unfortunately. But all the places we recorded had their own characters and were great.  The Wonder LP and Mother Sleep were recorded in a house in the middle of the Norfolk countryside. That was great staying for a week, getting inspiration from lovely walks alone in the trees and nature.

Do you prefer playing live gigs in a conventional format – or festival concerts?

We only did one proper festival, Indietracks, and it was great to look out at a field of people in the countryside. I’d love to do more. But I also love the intensity of a small room where you can feel the people around you (but not in a rude way!).

What bands have you enjoyed playing with on the same bill or opening for?

That was one of the best things about gigging. We played with Alex Chilton, Mo Tucker and Sterling Morrison, Julian Cope, Vic Godard, Blue Orchids as well as loads of fellow indie travellers. For me, Chilton was the highlight in around 1991. After we played, he said he really enjoyed our set, and we had a great time smoking and chatting in the dressing room. I met him a few times after that.

What’s on the horizon for 14 Iced Bears and Robert Sekula?

Not much for the Bears at the moment but I’m playing electric solo gigs, my next is supporting the Orchids and Jetstream Pony in London in October. I’m making a solo album, I have enough songs already, so hopefully I’ll get that out in not too long a time.

What other interests do you have outside of music?

I’m really into a mix of yoga and meditation I’ve developed over the years. It’s called Body Meditation and I explain the process on https://m.facebook.com/100063656646041/ its really simple to do and I’ve found it works for things I’ve come up against like colds, achy joints, gout, headaches and hangovers. It’s all about focusing on the sensation fully and letting it get as strong as possible, which for me seems to clear it. So either this works for other people too  or I’m some weird mutant!

How about family and home life?

I live a fairly solitary life but it’s ok as I like my own space. As I’ve got older my social life has decreased a lot but that’s life I suppose. I prefer being in nature more to crowds these days, anyway. I’m at my happiest doing my meditation and having a smoke in a quiet natural spot somewhere.

Well thank you Robert for taking the time to respond to the questions.  I wish you best of luck and success in all your future endeavors!

Pleasure Greg, thanks for asking!

Phil Wilson of The June Brides

Singer/songwriter Phil Wilson was the front man for The June Brides.  Phil, along with Simon Beesley, formed the band in 1983.  With jangly guitars, trumpet and a driving rhythm the band created some of the best English pop – or pop anywhere – during the mid-80’s.  Many have considered The June Brides as the link between early Postcard label bands and Creation Records artists.  Calling it a day in 1986, Phil and the band left us with several strong singles and a highly acclaimed album.  Mr. Wilson has gone on to release some of his own solo singles and an album in 2010.  Phil’s brand of songwriting has been very influential and many recent and current bands hold him in high esteem.  There was even a tribute album in 2006.  We’ll talk about this and much more in this interview. 

Thank you Phil for participating in this little Q&A session.

Phil, talk about your early life.  Where were you born?

I was born in Peterlee, in the North East of England. It was a New Town, built for coal miners and their families. We moved from there to Coventry when I was 3, and I lived there until I was 14. I’d like to paint a picture of a beautiful, idyllic, childhood…but it wasn’t that. My Mum is/was fantastic, but my step-father was a violent alcoholic. There was a lot of abuse. It probably explains my passion for fairness and decency, and my fear of authority.

What are some of your fondest memories of your youth?

The times when my step dad wasn’t around!

Was music usually playing in your household?

There was a fair bit of music. I remember my dad’s card playing sessions (he lost, got drunk and violent). But he would usually play with West Indian pals, so I heard a fair bit of reggae at an early age. I love reggae in spite of all that…

Were either of your parents musically inclined?

Both of my real parents could sing. Which may be a bit of a surprise if you’ve heard my singing. My mother had been a soloist in choirs when young, and my dad sang country and western music in the Working Mens’ Clubs in the North East of England. You can hear his magnificent yodelling (with me on guitar) at the link below, should you be so inclined.
https://soundcloud.com/phil-wilson-2/waiting-for-a-train-dick-wilson-and-the-spotted-cowboys

Siblings?

My brother Andy has released electronic music as Sunseastar and Raudive Bunker Experiment. It’s music about as far away from the June Brides as it’s possible to be!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdW-ZpL2CP0

Can you recall one of the first 45’s or albums you got?

I can, and it’s not cool. It was a Country and Western compilation album (“Music Country Style”). You had to collect wrappers from Cadburys sweets and send them off to get the LP.  In retrospect, it was a pretty good comp, and it introduced me to Johnny Cash and The Byrds if nothing else.

Name some of the bands you liked early on?

Again, not cool! Pre-punk I was obsessed with 10CC, Wings and Queen. I used to keep scrapbooks on each of them. Wish I had them still, as they would be fascinating. But all went in the bin after punk happened and my life was transformed.

Did you take guitar lessons or self-taught?

Self-taught, with some help from my friend Paul Strudwick. Pre-punk, it had never occurred to me that a kid like me could be in a band. Bands were for proper musicians. Punk definitely changed that idea for me, and meant I could try myself.

What was the name of your very first band?

The Smoking Beagles! It was a punk band, formed at school. There was even a badge – even if only one copy of it ever existed 😉

Was International Rescue your first “official” band?  Did the name come from the TV series “Thunderbirds”?  Any releases under this moniker?

“International Rescue” was a joke, to be honest. It was simply a bunch of friends who formed a daft band to enter a talent competition and parody it by being completely awful. Wasn’t our fault that we then won a few rounds of the competition and ended up having to play some concerts. We stopped doing it pretty quickly. I made electronic music solo for about a year, and then started The June Brides, who really were the first proper band I was involved with.

Rescue never had any releases. The name was, as you suggest, inspired by the TV series…

The June Brides formed in 1983.  Talk about the formation of the band. 

Well, it was very simple, really. I had a bunch of songs, and was sharing a squat with some students, some of whom happened to be musicians and into similar music. The band coalesced naturally.

What influences did each member bring to the table.

It was a diverse mix. We’d all been into punk, but people had moved on to Jazz, Funk, Post-punk and other sounds. We tried to mix them up – even doing a cover version of “Shake Your Body Down To The Ground” in early rehearsals. Luckily, no recordings exist to demonstrate our musical ineptitude at that point 😉

June Brides back in the day

Now Alan McGee, head of Creation, became interested in you guys.  Why did he decide not to sign you to his label?

We made some demos at home and sent copies to various people in an effort to get concerts. Alan McGee was the only person who was interested, and he started putting us on at his “Living Room” club. Virtually nobody else wanted us! We got popular at this club fairly quickly and soon became a headlining act there. Alan was always really supportive and keen. I’ve heard it said that so many people suggested to Alan that he sign us to Creation that he thought it would be “too obvious” a thing to do.

Who is Joe Foster and what was The Pink Label?

Joe was in the Television Personalities with Dan Treacy at the same time as we were starting out at Alan’s club. He was also a friend of Alan McGee’s and helping him run The Living Room, and became Creation’s “in-house” producer. He was behind the desk for many of the label’s early releases. Simon Down was another helper/friend involved with Alan and The Living Room. Simon started The Pink Label to put out The June Brides’ stuff, precisely because Alan wouldn’t do it!

I guess I’m not alone in thinking “Every Conversation” from 1984 is one of the band’s best tracks and one most associated with your sound. 

It’s definitely a song that we simply cannot miss out of a set! Think there would be a (polite) riot if we missed it out 😉

Were you pleased with the results of the mini-LP There Are Eight Million Stories…?  The critics and listening public must have been keen.  The album shot to #1 in the UK Indie Charts and remained on the charts for an extended period. 

Yes and no, really. I was pleased with the songs, and really happy about the way it was received by people and the music press. But it sounded a little thin. I remember hearing final mixes in the recording studio, and the songs sounded immense. Playing the vinyl was a real disappointment after that. I think it wasn’t mastered very well, so lost some power in the cutting. However, remasters have been done and we’re hoping improved versions of those and the rest of the Junies’ output, will eventually see a release.

Let’s talk choice of producer.  Why John O’Neill of The Undertones and That Petrol Emotion fame?

John produced the album as a return favour for us.  In short, That Petrol Emotion had been trying to get their first single out really quickly. They approached the Pink Label to see if Pink might do it. Fortunately, Pink had studio time booked imminently for the June Brides to record. We let TPE have our studio booking so they could get in and record their first single. So John said he’d produce our album when we could get new studio dates in return. We were huge Undertones fans so it was an honour to work with him. And he was a joy to work with.

Why did you decide to move from The Pink Label to In-Tape?

Pink had signed two fabulous bands, The Wolfhounds and McCarthy, after our success and the label was understandably keen to get behind them. We kind of thought that we’d be better off moving on now that the label’s enthusiasm for our band had waned a bit. Also, In Tape had their eyes set on the pop charts rather than the indie charts, and we thought that was something we should be aiming for, too…

Marc Riley, the owner used to be in The Fall, right?

He had been, indeed. And was famously kicked out of the band for standing up to Mark Smith and punching him!

On In-Tape you guys released 2 singles, 1985’s “No Place Like Home” and “This Town” (1986).  What recollection do you have of these discs?

I was really proud of them both, as I thought they had shown a proper development of the band. We had changed our sound, and I believed I had grown as a songwriter. I was really disappointed when they failed to get as good a reception as our earlier records had. That disappointment was the seed that started the end of the band…

In ’86 you opened for The Smiths on the Irish leg of their tour.  How did that go?  Did you have any interaction with the “headliners”?  Any juicy gossip?  LOL

“What happens on tour stays on tour”. You know the rules 😉

It was a really interesting experience. The concerts were mostly terrific. Morrissey had been kind enough to praise the band, and the audiences were therefore willing to give us a chance, and we went down well at all the gigs.
The Smiths were pretty tightly controlled by their management on the tour. So there were precious few chances to actually interact. And Morrissey only showed up for the actual concerts, only to be swiftly removed from the building almost immediately after the band had finished their set.

What do you remember about The Peel Sessions?

The weirdness of the BBC studios! It was very much more like being in an academic institution rather than anything to do with rock’n’roll. However, it may have been a bit sedate in atmosphere, but the speed at which you had to record made for an intense experience. And the sessions sounded great in spite of being rushed.

The June Brides called it a day in 1986.  Reason(s)?

We were tired and poor. A few years into being in a band and we were still all living in shared squats and living on the dole. It just seemed to have lost momentum and it felt as if continuing would only produce diminishing results. Also, seeing how controlled and ordered life for The Smiths had been on tour made one question whether being a pop star was anything like as much fun as it had been cracked up to be.  So we knocked it on the head…

Why did Alan McGee decide to sign you as a solo act?

To rectify his earlier daftness at failing to sign the June Brides!  I remember at the time him talking to me about wanting Creation to be the UK equivalent of the Elektra label. And he reckoned I Could be Creation’s Country Joe. Make of that what you will…

Phil

Which of your solo singles are you most pleased with?

I like ‘em all! I’m proud of being willful enough to put out an Americana sounding single immediately after the June Brides. And then following that up with a flamenco influenced one. And then coming back 20 years later with one that sounded like the June Brides again!
I always figure that you owe it to be people to try and change and to present them with something unexpected and new…although I do recognize that career-wise this might not be completely sensible…

Ok, let’s talk about the tribute album.  Speaking of 2006’s Still Unravished.  Who approached you first about this project?  Must have been a proud moment.  Talk about some of your favorite covers on the album.

It was the idea of Emmet Ó Briain, who ran the Yesboyicecream label. What he really wanted to do was to put out an album of new recordings, but I really wasn’t up for it at the time. So he figured the next best thing would be a tribute album.
I *really* loved the project. It felt to me that the cover versions proved that the songs had some worth in their own right. They could live independently of me, as it were. The Starlets version of “Sunday to Saturday” actually made me cry the first time I heard it. But all the tracks on there were really interesting takes that I enjoyed. The whole thing makes me feel immensely proud and honoured…

Talk about your Industrial Strength EP (2008).  I find that quite a departure from what you had been doing.

It was never really meant to be an official release. So, let me explain…
I had started getting back into the idea of writing songs, but didn’t feel confident enough in my abilities to leap back into it. So I decided to record a load of songs that I loved, and that had shaped me in different ways. I hoped that the experience of learning the songs and adapting them to my limited abilities would help me in re-learning some of the craft of songwriting. I recorded indie pop songs, post-punk stuff, C&W, pop songs and industrial covers. Mike Schulman at Slumberland got to hear some of the tracks and suggested that the 4 cover versions that subsequently made up “Industrial Strength” would make for a coherent release. So I let him do it!

In 2009 you, Simon, Jon and Frank reunited for a one-off show.  How did that turn out?

It was just a one-off, in celebration of my brother Andy’s 50th birthday. It was great fun to do, particularly as we played with the German band S/T. I always enjoy playing with groups coming from a totally different scene/sound to ours. When the band started in 1983, we often played with punk and industrial/electronic bands, so it was great to do so again after all those intervening years.

God Bless Jim Kennedy was the title of your 2010 solo album.  Who is Jim Kennedy?

Jim Kennedy was my grandfather. He met my grandmother when she was 15 and he 16. She became pregnant with my mother. But he died at aged 17 before my mother was born. So, I’m very grateful for his brief existence…

In 2012 you guys reformed again and this time released your first single in 23 years!  Then a second single in 2014.  So the magic was still there?

Well, we never had a tempestuous falling out. We remained friends. So playing together again when the time eventually felt right was quite natural. Whether it was magic is not really for me to say! But it was definitely fun.

Also, back in 2012 The June Brides released the album Between the Moon and the Clouds.  There are also a few of your solo tracks on there too. 

Yeah, but it was never really an actual LP. Just a catch-up CD for anyone who might have missed a bit of the intervening years…

Has the Cherry Red released compilation Every Conversation brought you some new fans?

I think so. There was definitely an upturn in interest after it came out. I found myself talking to young people from all over the world who had discovered the band. It felt great!

What’s happening currently in the Phil Wilson camp?

Am having a quiet time. I really don’t know if/when there will be any new music. The timing doesn’t currently feel right. But things change, and the need to create can creep up on you when you least expect it.

How about in the immediate future?

A weekend of friendship, dancing and possibly a modicum of alcohol at the Glas-Goes Pop festival on 5 and 6 August. This will be the first June Brides concert since Barcelona in 2016, and it might possibly be our last ever. Should be damned fun, whatever…

What interests you outside of music?

I live on Dartmoor, Devon – which is a beautiful part of the world. So getting into nature, cycling and picking wild mushrooms are the things that help keep me mostly sane.

Family life?

Just my wife and myself. It’s enough 😊

Well, thank you so much Phil.  I’ve enjoyed taking this walk with you down memory lane. 

Close Lobsters with Andrew Burnett

Close Lobsters are an indie pop/rock band originating in Paisley/Glasgow, Scotland.  Original members include Andrew Burnett, Bob Burnett, Tom Donnelly, Stewart McFayden and Graeme Wilmington. Jim Taylor joined on guitar. Beginning in 1985, the unit has produced some of the best catchy guitar-oriented jangle pop, with a solid rhythm section and a driving beat. The period of 1985 to 1989 saw the band release 2 albums and several singles and EP’s.  After taking an extended hiatus in ’89 Close Lobsters reformed in 2012.  Since then there have been 4 more releases culminating with 2020’s ‘Post Neo Anti: Arte Povera in the Forest Symbols’.  During their tenure the band has recorded for Fire Records, Enigma Records and Shelflife Records. Recently I was able to catch up with front man Andrew Burnett.

Welcome Andrew.  I assume everyone survived the lockdown?

All present and correct. We feel a little guilty however given that THAT was the reaction to our releasing a new album after 30 years. Literally days after the release we went into lockdown!

Was everyone born in and/or around Paisley?

You could say that. We are all pretty much products of the Greater Glasgow industrial conurbation and the Scottish/Irish diaspora. ‘Clyde-Built’ to a man! Hard as Tarzans feet. Born on the cusp of that traditional set of qualities now replaced with a new sensibility.

What recollections do you have of your childhood?

Inviting a tree to a birthday party and setting the school on fire.

First single or album you remember buying?

T-Rex Children of the Revolution

In your teens what bands were you into?

The Clash – big time!, Dexys Midnight Runners, The Only Ones.

When did you decide you wanted to be a musician, to be in a band?

Seeing The Clash in impossibly cool-as-fuck mode. We were formed out of a clash, so to speak of that and a new affectation around the early Orange Juice. Something was clearly afoot. Our influences as a group are notoriously broad but we coalesce on things like The Fall and The Go-Betweens to some extent. And other things.

What was the music scene like in Paisley at this time?

Strangely, due to the Glasgow authorities collectively having a stick up their arse, punk rock was outlawed in Glasgow and therefore Paisley assumed the mantle of Punk Rock capital of the West of Scotland. A whole subculture emerged through gigs at The Silver Thread and The Bungalow that then partly spawned a local punk rock scene from which we emerged in a post-punk kind of way.

What bands were you in before Close Lobsters?  Anything released?

My first ever show was in a high-school group called The Taxmen fronted by a Beatles aficionado.

Talk about the formation of Close Lobsters.

It was as natural as the days and urgent as the sun.

What influences did each member bring to the table?

From Can to the Skids. From Swell Maps to the Go-Betweens. Too many to say.

Who came up with the name?  Can you explain the meaning?

Close- alleyway

Lobsters – to ‘lob’ ie throw

Insurrection

How did the song “Firestation Towers” get chosen for the C86 compilation?

The June Brides didn’t want to do it and recommended us!

Did this help jump start the band’s career?

Think so. To some extent the coverage helped and hindered in equal measure.

Who were some of your contemporaries playing around Paisley during this time?

The Wise Acres, Defiant Pose.

What was the response to your first 2 singles, “Going to Heaven to See if it Rains” (1986) and “Never Seen Before” (1987)?

Pretty good. Still is. Largely.

I am sorry I missed your first album, 1987’s Foxheads Stalk This Land, the first time around.  Very solid outing.  My comments on a few of the tracks:

On the opening track “Just Too Bloody  Stupid”, I like the echo effect on the vocals and the assaulting drums.  In fact, I’ve noticed that tight power drumming used across your repertoire. 

Again the echo, drums on “I Kiss the Flower in Bloom”, which is my 2^nd favorite on the album.  Like the tempo.

“A Prophecy” is my favorite track on the album.  Nice melody, pretty song. 

“Mother of God” should shut up any critic that says you guys can only crank out 2-3 minute songs!

Thank you. Good review.

My first aural encounter with Close Lobsters was the EP What Is There to Smile About.  I was impressed with the quality of material.  “Let’s Make Some Plans”, “From This Day On”, “Skyscrapers of St. Mirin” and “Violently Pretty Face” all registered strongly with me.

Thank you. This was for the US market initially.

On 1989’s Headache Rhetoric I like “Gulp”.  Only criticism is it’s way too short. 

It is, isn’t it? If you listen closely you can hear how we chopped it up in production because we thought it too long!

Like the relationship that it recounts.

Absolutely.

What songs on the album are you partial to?

“My Days are Numbered” and “Lovely Little Swan”

Where did you record your albums?  Really good production.

John Rivers in Leamington Spa is the magician we go to help conjure up our storms. Aside from being a lovely guy John is a master in the studio.

The band did tour quite a bit.  What were some of your favorite gigs?  Who did you enjoy opening for/playing with on the same bill?

Personally my favourite ever show was in Hanau near Frankfurt in West Germany as it was then in 1988.

And Columbus Ohio in 1989.

And Madrid 2012….!

In ’89 you guys went on an extended break.  Was this the result of a burnout of so much touring?

Pretty much. The harsh reality of life impinged. As much as we love it we were becoming like Spinal Tap.

Forever, Until Victory! was a singles collection.  Did this help increase your fan base?

Not too sure. This was the idea of Fire Records around ‘Record Store Day’.

You guys do a great cover of Neil Young’s “Hey Hey My My Into the Black”. 

Thank you. Yeah it’s a bit of dust-up isn’t it?

In 2012 you reformed.  Was It back to business as usual or were there any kinks to work out after such an extended period?

It all came together remarkably well at the Madrid Popfest. A pent-up release no doubt.

Nowadays for the past few years Jim has replaced Graeme on guitar.

Fast forward to 2020’s Post Neo Anti:  Arte Povera in the Forest of Symbols.   Ok, that’s a mouthful.  Explain the title. 

A take on the uncertainty of the times – the ‘end times’ where we look for that after and the new, but in which we assert our resistance. We create music /art outside the glare of the market in what Baudelaire called the ‘forest of symbols’.

I hear a maturity on this release and in my opinion it’s your most fully realized album.

Great guitars on “All Compasses Go Wild”. 

“Godless” is my favorite track.

“Johnnie” and “Under London Skies” are great songs. 

“Wander Pts. I & II” has to be the biggest departure for you guys from your recognized “sound”.  I really dig this one. 

Thank you. Yes, its very much more developed all round. Lyrically it is intellectually and instinctively composed.

So what’s new in the Close Lobsters camp?

Glasgow Popfest August 6^th 2022 where we will play a set that includes some new stuff. In particular a new track entitled “Stepping Across” which we are excited about.

What about on the horizon? 

Recording soon. Hopefully the above track which will of course become an enormous redemptive hit!

Well, thanks so much for your time and best wishes!

Breathless with Ari and Dominic

Through 7 albums, 1 compilation, plus 13 singles and EP’s

London 4 piece Breathless have cut their own creative swathe

across the musical landscape. Beginning in 1983 right up to

present, the band has stayed busy – minus a hiatus or two.

Lead singer Dominic Appleton has contributed vocals on This

Mortal Coil’s Filigree & Shadow. And there’s a brand new album

tentatively entitled “See Those Colours Fly” being released this

year. Founding members Ari Neufeld and Dominic Appleton join

me in this little Q&A session.

First off, how has life been throughout the lockdown?

ARI: It was awful seeing the suffering all around. People dying

and losing their jobs.

From a personal point of view I thought I would really hate it, not

being able to go to any gigs or meet up with friends, but I

actually really liked a lot of things about it.

I loved the peace and quiet and the fact that I could really

concentrate on my work without any distractions.

I think I would have gone crazy if I lived alone, or couldn’t have

gone to the park every day for a walk, but here in England, we

were allowed out once a day for exercise so I really made the

most of being outdoors.

DOMINIC: Like Ari, on a personal level, I loved lockdown. I feel

guilty saying it when other people were suffering so much but I

loved it. I loved the peace. My anxiety virtually disappeared. I do

live alone but the solitary element didn’t bother me at all. Mind

you, I was very lucky in that as a musician and a gardener I was

able to continue working throughout. I learnt a lot about myself

and it gave me an opportunity to assess what was valuable and

important to me. My life has changed for the better since

lockdown.

I imagine you did some writing and composition of new material

during this period?

ARI: I spent most of lockdown working on See Those Colours

Fly.

I was supposed to be editing and preparing the tracks for

Kramer to mix. But every time I sat down to do some editing, I

heard a new melody line in my head, so just kept adding more

and more little melodies as I went. I fractured my elbow in 2018,

and couldn’t play bass or guitar for a while, so had to find other

ways to play the ideas in my head and started playing one

fingered synth as a quick way of recording them.

DOMINIC: For me it was the same, it was an opportunity to

focus on things like music.

Dominic and Ari Today

Ok, so how soon can we expect to see the new album

released?

ARI: The CD and Digital version are out on 29th July and Red

Translucent Vinyl on 5th August.

With the Download Single “We Should Go Driving” released on

15th July.

For this album you’ve chosen to work with producer Kramer

(Galaxie 500, Low). How did this arrangement come about?

ARI: Kramer mixed 3 tracks on our last album Green To Blue,

which we were really pleased with, so we decided to take a leap

of faith and get him to mix the whole of our new album.

DOMINIC: I can’t remember how we first came into contact with

him. How did it happen Ari?

ARI: He contacted us, which was wonderful, being such big

fans of Low and Galaxie 500.

What can we expect from the new album?

ARI: It’s very dreamlike and hallucinogenic. All the drums are

programmed as Tristram was in a car accident and in a coma

and we didn’t know what the outcome would be, so I had to

program the drums. Thankfully he is OK. So it’s very spacey

and apart from a couple of songs, very laid back.

DOMINIC: Yes it’s a ‘make yourself comfortable and drift away’

sort of album!

As teenagers, was there a favorite record store you would

frequent? (Before Virgin Megastore)

ARI: Before the Megastore there were lots of small Virgin

shops, so I guess those.

DOMINIC: Oh my goodness yes! There were Bonaparte and

Beanos in Croydon. Rough Trade in West London. Beggars

Banquet in Earls Court. I also really liked Virgin Oxford Walk (on

Oxford Street, London) which was run by Jim Thirlwell and

Trevor Reidy. I absolutely loved those shops as a teenager.

Post punk was such an exciting time in music. When I was 13

or 14 I used to buy stuff mail order through Small Wonder.

Dominic, before Breathless you were in a band called Cruel

Memory. Any “memories”? Did you release any material?

DOMINIC: Yes I do remember, it was such a formative time for

me. It was a bunch of friends from school and me. Gary played

guitar and sang and I played keyboards. We played fairly

regularly at Croydon Warehouse Theatre which is where we

met Anne Clark the poet – we played on her first album. I loved

it. A Cruel Memory released limited edition cassettes that we

sold at gigs. I haven’t listened to them for decades!!!

Recall how the two of you met.

ARI: We met at the Virgin Megastore. I had been there a few

months longer than Dominic, so had to show him the ropes. We

immediately hit it off and soon became good friends and started

going to gigs together.

DOMINIC: Ha, we hit it off really well. Too well as far as Virgin

were concerned. I remember we weren’t allowed to work

together as we chatted and kidded around too much.

ARI: Oh yes, that’s right we got separated, like school children!

And Ari, you were in a band at the time but not really happy with

the direction (or lack of direction thereof)? And the two of you

decided to form your own band?

ARI: Dominic and I were both in this band. I could hear Dominic

playing lovely things on the keyboard (this was before he sang)

but he was constantly being drowned out by what the others

were doing, which was pretty awful anyway. The singer was a

real prima donna and referred to us as her “backing band” so

we decided to leave and form our own band, which became

Breathless.

DOMINIC: Yes, that band wasn’t any fun at all. It’s not

surprising that Ari and I splintered off and recruited Gary to play

guitar straight away!

Regarding the band’s name, who is the fan of French New

Wave cinema?

ARI: I am a bit of a fan, but more of Chabrol than Godard.

Actually more of a Visconti fan and fan of Italian cinema. We

just liked the name as we felt it was timeless.

DOMINIC: We needed a name to book some studio time. We

often talked about names but got nowhere. I think eventually we

just plucked it out of Time Out magazine’s film guide just before

we made the phone call. I hadn’t seen the film and when I did I

have to confess I didn’t think it was all that good.

Ari, do you pattern your bass playing after anyone in particular?

Who are some bassists you admire?

ARI: My biggest influence is Carole Kaye, who I know also

influenced Peter Hook, whom, I love as well. I also love Chic, so

Bernard Edwards, though I’m not sure how much of his playing

is reflected in Breathless’ music! My bass teacher, Eric

Richards, also taught me lots of classical pieces in the bass

clef, which really brought out my melodic side.

Dominic, you have such a beautiful voice, I can’t believe you

didn’t take lessons or sing in the choir as a youth?

DOMINIC: Thank you very much. I didn’t sing when I was

young. I wasn’t even in the school choir – I remember everyone

had to audition one by one in front of the class. Everyone had

these little boy soprano voices. When it came to my turn I just

imitated them. It must have been awful. Needless to say, I failed

the audition. I started singing when Ari and I first tried making

music together. I had to get drunk to do it – even though I was

just with Ari. I wasn’t very confident. In fact, despite the lovely

things people have said about my voice, I’ve never been very

confident about it. That’s one of the reasons I hate playing live

so much.

Flowers Die

Talk about the chemistry in the band from the onset.

ARI: Dominic played me something by A Cruel Memory,

(probably one of those cassettes Dominic mentioned), soon after

the 2 of us had our first rehearsal, and I said something like,

“We have to have that guitarist!” So Gary came to rehearsal.

Everyone was really shy and nervous, so we hardly spoke,

even though Dominic and Gary knew each other quite well. But

the moment the three of us started playing together, it was like

some kind of magic was happening and it has been like that

pretty much ever since!

How early on did you know you wanted to form your own label

and why?

ARI: After we recorded “Waterland”.

It was initially going to be just a demo. We took it around

various record labels and they just didn’t get what we were

trying to do. At the same time Dominic and I were working at

Virgin and we played “Waterland” in the shop and lots of

customers came up to the counter asking what it was and

where they could buy it, which got us thinking, that there might

be a market for it if we released it ourselves.

DOMINIC: Yes, going to record labels and being told we

sounded like Joy Division was a real bore. We didn’t sound

anything like Joy Division. What was the matter with these

people?!

And you never saw a need for a manager?

ARI: We were approached by some, but they just wanted to

change us. Change our music.

My first Breathless album I purchased was Three Times and

Waving. My favorite track has always been “Is It Good News

Today”. Love the icy keyboards and Ari’s bass in the beginning

and how the song slowly builds and then the jam towards the

end. Who decided to end the song suddenly like that? I think

it’s the only way it could end.

ARI: It was a long time ago, so I can’t remember, who decided

on the ending.

That’s one of my favourite songs on Three Times And Waving

too, along with “Let’s Make A Night Of It” and “Waiting On The

Wire” and one of the first songs we recorded with Martyn Watts

who joined the band half way through the recording of that

album.

DOMINIC: I think we ended it abruptly because there was a

mistake in the take and we had to cut it dead there. I’m really

glad it happened that way, I think it sounds great.

The Early Days

Now speaking of favorites, my top 2 are the double single

“Over and Over”/”All That Matters Now”. And I can’t decide

which I like best.

ARI: Yes! Both those songs are amongst my favourites too, so I

can’t help you!

DOMINIC: Oh blimey, I find it impossible to pick a favourite.

Over the years do you feel you have continued to evolve as a

band?

ARI: Yes very much. I heard a tape of us playing in Rome in

the 80s and was surprised at how rough edged and punky we

sounded. I think every album is a step forward.

And when it isn’t we scrap it and start again, like we did after

Between Happiness And Heartache.

DOMINIC: Yes, you have to evolve. We do it for the love of it, I

don’t think we’d still be together if we didn’t feel like we are

progressing.

Is It Good News Today

Can you explain your popularity in Italy, especially during the

80’s?

ARI: I think Italians are romantics and our music is deeply

romantic, both in terms of the sound and lyrics.

Both Dominic and Gary were brought up as Catholics and I am

often reminded of the sound of a church organ when I listen to

Dominic’s keyboards, so maybe there is something resonating

subconsciously there too.

DOMINIC: It could be the romance but really I have no idea. I’m

very grateful for it though.

Do you both prefer recording to playing live?

ARI: Yes, especially since we have been recording at home.

DOMINIC: I love writing and recording. Playing live is a torture,

so many things are out of our control.

Explain “post studio blues”?

ARI: It’s the musicians version of Post Natal Depression. When

one has been working, and focusing on something for months

and then when it’s completed, there is a sense of anti climax.

Dominic, how were you approached by Ivo to sing on one of the

This Mortal Coil albums?

DOMINIC: 4AD was one label that showed interest when we

sent out our first demo. Ivo contacted us to say he liked what

we were doing but he felt we weren’t quite there yet. I’ve heard

that first demo and I agree with him! Once we decided to start

Tenor Vossa Ivo stayed in touch and was really helpful and

encouraging. He still is to this day.

I think you do a wonderful rendition of “The Jeweller”. Tom

Rapp and Pearls Before Swine are very much underrated

artists. The album These Things Too should be a classic.

So there was never any talk of signing you guys to 4AD?

ARI: Yes.

DOMINIC: There was talk. I think there was a suggestion at

some point that we rerecord some of our songs with a drum

machine which didn’t go down very well with us. Funny that now

the new album is all drum machines!

Did you enjoy working with John Fryer on your own material?

ARI: Yes! I remember listening back to “Across The Water”, which

I think was the first song we did with him and just being amazed

at the actual sound of it, the largeness and depth and all the

mysterious sounds, that I had no idea where they came from,

just wafting across it, like they were in slow motion.

Which recording studio have you enjoyed working in the most?

ARI: Ari Ola Panda (what I call my home studio) and Blackwing

1, as it had such an amazing sound and because so many of

our favourite records were recorded there.

DOMINIC: The small Blacking studio was fantastic. it had a

really good feeling. These days, working at home is amazing.

You can disappear into it for hours and hours without winding

everybody else up AND without them winding you up. I miss the

laughter though. Breathless recording sessions were hysterical.

Now that you’ve had a taste of recording at home, do you prefer

that over being in a studio?

ARI: I do totally. It’s so much more relaxed. There are no time

or money constraints, so one can experiment more. Try out

different ideas, do lots of takes.

And it was perfect Kramer mixing it all at the end, though

obviously it would have been even better mixing face to face

with him.

DOMINIC: Absolutely.

Ari, I imagine running Tenor Vossa keeps you pretty busy?

ARI: it’s crazy, there is always something to do. But it does go in

cycles depending on if we have a new release or not. So yes

now it’s pretty crazy, as you can imagine.

Any short or long term plans for Breathless?

ARI: Playing live I hope!

What interests do you have outside music?

ARI: I studied film and photography at college, so I still love

going to the cinema. I have recently been making a video for

our single “We Should Go Driving” and have really got into it big

time! And really want to do more video.

To relax I love sunbathing, preferably by the sea, reading a

good book. I am currently reading Elena Ferrante’s Naples

Quartet, which I can’t put down.

DOMINIC: I work as a gardener which I love. I’ve also helped

run a nightclub called Duckie for the last 27 years. And I read

and read and read. Fiction and poetry mostly.

Well thank you both for your time and I wish you continued

success in the future!

ARI: Thank you!

Harvey Williams

One of the first artists to sign with the now legendary Sarah Records, Harvey Williams, under the banner of Another Sunny Day, composed and released several singles and EP’s of his heartfelt handcrafted melodies from 1988 to 1992.  In the 90’s Harvey released 2 solo albums under his own name.  Along the way Mr. Williams played in The Field Mice, Blueboy, The Hit Parade and Trembling Blue Stars.  Today he works for the BBC, remastering TV programmes for archival & research purposes.  Harvey has agreed to take this little trip down memory lane with me. 

Thank you Harvey for taking this time to revisit your foray into indie music.

First off, how has the lockdown affected you and those close to you?

I guess it’s made me more appreciative of what I have. While it’s been quite hard for all of us, lockdown certainly hasn’t affected me directly as much as some of my family or friends. I still have a job, still have my health, can still do much of what I enjoy doing. I think everyone has had to mentally readjust their expectations of life during the pandemic, and as mine are pretty meagre anyway, maybe that’s why I feel relatively unfazed by it.

Let’s start at the beginning.  Where were you born?  What was your childhood like?

I was born in Newlyn, a fishing village in Cornwall. From a young age all I remember was being fascinated – obsessed, even – with music. My dad had a small collection of classical & vocal records, and there was also a stack of 1960s 45s in the house (Beatles, Monkees, Joe Meek…), which – I seem to remember – were passed on by a kindly relative. I listened to them endlessly.

Did you have any formal musical training growing up?

We had a small upright piano, and when I was around eight years old, I had couple of years’ piano lessons. I wasn’t very good at playing, I always preferred music theory, but my piano teacher had a great hi-fi set-up (Transcriptors/Quad), on which he would play selected pieces to try to encourage my interest in “the classics”; I certainly remember him playing Rhapsody In Blue, for example. It would have been the first time I ever heard it, and to listen to it – & other “classics” – on a decent hi-fi really awakened my ears.

What were you listening to in high school and in your early 20’s?

Punk rock happened when I was 11, and fundamentally changed my listening habits; up til then my two favourite bands were Queen & 10cc (who coincidentally had both gone a bit off-the-boil by the end of 1977 into 78). It certainly helped that my brother – who was 3 years older, and was more attuned to punk rock than an 11 year old might have been – was bringing home records like Spiral Scratch, White Riot & Sheena is a Punk Rocker. Our paths diverged a bit after that; me getting into electronics, then into the independent scene. But he was absolutely fundamental to shaping my musical taste through the punk years.

Do you recall a local record store that you would frequent?

Through school, my go-to shop in Penzance (near Newlyn) was called Chy An Stylus. It was the only shop in the area with a punk rock 45 box; I seem to remember they had a copy of the EMI Anarchy In The UK – a desirable record even in 1977 – pinned to the wall.

Did you record any material prior to Another Sunny Day?

I was always recording stuff at home, as soon as I got a mono cassette machine. But it was all quite “free-form”; nothing that was ever released, obviously.

Rio

Were you ever part of a band with various members?

I would occasionally get together with my brother and a couple of his mates & we would record DIY/Swell-Maps-esque improvisatory stuff. It was never anything so formal as a band, but it was pretty enjoyable, though looking back it was pretty clear that the others put up with my presence, rather than seeing me as part of what they were doing. They were two years older than me, after all, which is a big deal in your mid-teens.

So you decided to make music the way you wanted, no compromise, you needed to do it all yourself?

It was less about “no compromise” and more about lacking the confidence to work with other musicians. I can be pretty unforthcoming, particularly in terms of leadership. Of course, being in a band shouldn’t necessarily be about having leadership qualities, it’s all about interaction, communication. So I wish I’d made more of an effort to interact & communicate back then; it would have made life a good deal easier. And more enjoyable too, I dare say.

I assume at this point you had all the musical instruments you needed.   What equipment did you get to record the songs?

In 1985 a couple of college friends & I saw a cheap 4-track portastudio in a local secondhand shop; a Fostex X-15, the cheapest available. We decided to pool our resources and go for it. I think the three of us scraped together £50 each from our student grants. It didn’t come with a manual, so we were feeling our way a bit. We shared it for awhile….then when college finished and we all moved apart I somehow ended up with it. Oops! Thanks guys. My only other musical equipment around this time was a Casio VL-Tone, a temperamental mono synthesizer (Jen SX 1000) and an Eko 12-string acoustic fitted with a pickup.

Talk about the recording process.

Later I bought a Boss drum machine, which gave the set-up some form. Every song was recorded differently, particularly when it got to the studio, but the demos would generally go: run the drum machine onto one track, while playing the acoustic onto another track. Retune the acoustic down a few tones, tweak the EQ, and that would work as the bass. Put another guitar on top if needs be. Do the vocal. Tambourine, maybe? Synth, maybe? Second vocal, maybe? That was about it. If it went to more than four tracks, I’d bounce it down to two tracks via a cassette deck, then swap the mixed-down cassette into the fostex & there’d be two more tracks to work with. And so on. Too much detail?!

Now I’ve heard lots of music over the years and I have a pretty good ear.  If I didn’t know Another Sunny Day was a solo effort, I would have never guessed. 

You couldn’t have paid me a greater compliment. Thank you. That was exactly the intention!

How did a couple of fanzine writers become instrumental in your music career?

Initially I only ever sent out two demos, and neither of them went to record companies. I sent one to Matt Haynes, writer of the fanzine ‘Are You Scared To Get Happy?’, and another to Bob Stanley, who was then writing the ‘Caff’ zine. They are both great writers (though in very different ways), and both really touched a nerve in me. Neither was running a label at the time, but it was never really my intention to get signed to a record label. That wasn’t the point. I just wanted to share this stuff with other people who I thought might be interested in it.

Can you recall the details leading up to and the signing with Sarah Records?

Sarah never “signed” bands, at least to my knowledge. I certainly never had anything as formal as a contract. I guess there was just a mutual agreement between us… anyway, Matt liked the demo I sent him (this would have been early summer 1987). We talked about doing a flexidisc, but then as plans for Sarah coalesced, he suggested getting involved with that instead. I was only too happy to be part of it.

Did you think this was a good fit for you and your music?

I can think of none better.

My favorite ASD song is “Rio”.  Just curious if you got any flack from the “Duran squared” over this?

Thanks. Nope, nothing from Duran. Nothing from Mike Nesmith either!

Of course I also enjoy “You Should All Be Murdered”.  Without mentioning names, was this written from personal experience or just a reflection on society at large?

I don’t know where it came from I’m afraid, though I was unemployed at the time and listening to The Smiths a lot, which might be a pointer. It’s a song I have very mixed feelings about nowadays. I mean, they were pretty mixed feelings even when I wrote it, but now even more so.

Curious why “I’m In Love With a Girl Who Doesn’t Know I Exist” is so short?

I’m a big fan of brevity: say what you want to say & don’t waste my time. Primal Scream’s ‘Velocity Girl’ was a template for quite a few of my early tunes, and this is certainly one of them. Verse, chorus, solo, stop.

How did you meet Bobby Wratten and Michael Hiscock?

I got to hear an early Field Mice demo at Clare & Matt’s flat, not long before their first EP was issued. It sounded great, really purposeful & minimalist. I wrote a couple of letters to Bobby (this was while I was still living in Cornwall), and when I moved to London, I suggested teaming up with them; they’d be the Another Sunny Day rhythm section, I’d be their lead guitarist, and we would play each other’s songs in the same set. It worked for a few gigs (I think we did maybe 4 in this format), but Bob’s songwriting output was way ahead of mine in terms of both quality & quantity, so Another Sunny Day fell by the wayside pretty quickly.

Any concerts that stand out in your mind?  Did you have a particular venue you enjoyed playing?

We played a Sarah festival in Paris quite early on in our days as a 3-piece. I was staggered at how busy the venue was (I guess a packed 600-capacity venue), and Another Sunny Day were on first. It was the first time I’d ever experienced an overwhelming positive reaction onstage. But the best moment was during the Field Mice set when we encored with Sensitive, getting Chris from fellow Sarah band The Orchids (also on the bill) to play real drums. Suddenly the dynamic completely changed. It felt like we were a proper band.

You Should All Be Murdered

What particular songs you recorded with The Field Mice are your favorites?

I really like all the songs on the So Said Kay EP. Such clarity of vision, both in the songwriting & in the production.

You next had a stint with the band Blueboy in the early 90’s.  Sad to hear of Keith Girdler’s passing in 2007.  I always loved the sensitive vocals and delicate guitar work of Paul Stewart.  Any memories here?

Paul was an amazing guitarist and arranger to play with, and a definite impetus to “up my game”. Suddenly you weren’t restricted to trying to sound “indie”; you could incorporate a string quartet or some cocktail jazz, or whatever was needed to convey the required mood for the song. It may well have been the motivation I needed to incorporate more piano/keyboards into my own songs.

How long did you play with The Hit Parade?  My favorite track is “You Were Mine”.

We did a couple of Japanese tours together in the early 1990s, though have also played occasional one-offs as a duo of Julian & myself right up to the present day (I say that; we probably haven’t played together for ten years). Julian was another major inspiration in my early days of songwriting and recording. It always seemed like The Hit Parade was just a solo project of his (even though this wasn’t necessarily true), so this made it OK for me to do the same. That early run of Hit Parade singles still sounds absolutely perfect to me.

You also played with Bobby Wratten in Trembling Blue Stars. Do you have a favorite song or album from this period?

The Trembling Blue Stars records (at least when I was involved) were basically solo Bobby recordings; I don’t think I appear on any of them. My role – at least as I saw it – was to help reproduce the records on stage. There are some real beauties on the first & third LPs, I think. Something like ‘Saffron, Beautiful & Brown-Eyed’ or ‘Dark Eyes’ are really bold expressions of where Bobby’s head was at back then, and just fantastic melodically & arrangement-wise.

Talk about your 2 solo albums released under your own name, 1994’s Rebellion and 1998’s California.  Are you partial to one album over the other?

Getting back to that thing I said earlier about brevity; Rebellion was a conscious decision to remove anything which didn’t need to be there, to pare it down to the bare bones of the song. I wanted to make it as simple, as minimal as possible. I also liked the idea of making a record with no guitars: that’ll confuse the Sarah purists! With California, I don’t think I could have got away with making another record as brief and basic as Rebellion (and wouldn’t really have wanted to make the same record again anyway), so I expanded on it a bit, while still keeping the sound within quite tight parameters. I prefer the second LP, particularly the instrumentals, but there’s plenty I don’t like about both.

In 2009 Cherry Red re-released the Sarah compilation London Weekend, originally released in 1992.  Have you noticed a resurgence of interest and growth in Another Sunny Day’s fan base since 2009?

A little. The increase in interest I think actually started before 2009, when certain (relatively) high profile bands like The Pains of Being Pure at Heart began citing the label as being an influence on their music. But the Sarah Records book & film, along with myspace (remember myspace?!) & social media in general have all helped increase the label’s profile in recent years. Suddenly you had direct contact with the label’s fanbase; the revival circuit was instantly beckoning…

Are there any demos or unreleased ASD tracks that may one day be released?

I have plenty of home demos, but they won’t be going anywhere. I think the barrel was well & truly scraped with the London Weekend CD reissue.

Do you enjoy your work with the BBC? 

Some days are pretty grim & repetitive, but there are certainly times when I can’t believe how lucky I am to be doing what I do & getting paid for it (I preserve & restore 60s/70s film-based tv programmes, and digitizing them for upload to the BBC’s online archive). Current affairs programmes from – say- the early 1970s really do give a window into a world which will now never return, and I feel quite privileged to watch some of them, and help bring them to a potentially wider audience someday. It never ceases to amaze me how much the world has changed in the last fifty years. But I guess fifty years is actually quite a long time.

How about any interests outside of work?

I’m really interested in ancient monuments: stone circles, Neolithic burial chambers & the like. There are dozens of these in the area I grew up, so it’s an interest that’s been there since I was a kid. But somehow there are always more to see.
And I still love pop music, of course.

Well thank you Harvey for this time and a trip down memory lane.  Best wishes to you!

And to you!

Garce of Sad Lovers and Giants

Sad Lovers and Giants are a post-punk, melodic psych band originating from Watford, England.  The band infuses insightful lyrics with effects-laden guitar and atmospheric keyboards.  Originally signed to Midnight Music in 1982, from 1982-1991 SLAG have released 5 albums and several EP’s and singles.  The last 2 releases have come out on Voight-Kampff Records.  Forging their way through lineup changes and an oftentimes fickled music industry the band have never compromised their musical integrity and have stayed true to their vision.  Garce, lead singer and lyricist has joined me here for this Q&A session. 

First of all, thank you Garce for taking time to answer these questions. 

How have you, family and friends fared through the lockdown?

My family and friends have fared well through the lockdown thank you.

Your given name is Simon.  Hope you don’t mind me asking where “Garce” comes from?

When I joined the band at one point I wore a striped shirt that they thought made me look like a French waiter (lazy stereotypes were ok back then) and so I was called garçon originally which almost immediately got shortened to Garce.

Where were you born?  How was your childhood?

I was born in Watford which is about 20 miles outside of London. My childhood was very settled, I was encouraged to be creative and to love literature.

Can you recall one of the first singles or albums you bought growing up?

The first album I bought when I was 13 was Deep Purple in Rock.

As a teenager what interested you besides music?

Reading and Art.  I requested the complete works of Jane Austen as a present for my 18th birthday.

Who were some of the bands you liked early on?

Apart from my initial foray into Deep Purple, I was really into all the Glam rock bands, Slade, Marc Bolan, Roxy Music and of course massively David Bowie. I moved on to prog rock bands like Genesis and particularly Pink Floyd.

Was there a favorite record shop you frequented?

Strawberry Fields in Rickmansworth, which was the town I and the rest of the founding members grew up in.

How long had you known you wanted to be in a band?

Since I went to see Slade play live at Wembley when I was fifteen, they were supported by The Sensational Alex Harvey Band who were….sensational.

What was your first band?

Suspect Device, I was the guitarist, here’s a photo.

Talk about the formation of Sad Lovers and Giants.  Were you friends with any prior to getting together as a band?  What were each member’s influences?

Simon Blanchard (TGF) David Wood and Nigel all went to school together, incidentally my mother taught them, their band was called The Traumatics and my band, Suspect Device played a gig with them at my old school in 1980.

At that point they had a bass player called Steve Carter who went on to play in Alternative TV with Mark Perry (Sniffin Glue fanzine).

The Traumatics had recorded a demo of a song called 50:50 which was played to me by Dave Wood who I knew from drinking at the local pub. He asked me to audition as their vocalist. We still play that song as an encore 42 years after I first heard it, it was by far their best song and I wanted in.

When I became a full member I was surprised by the range of the music they listened to from artists like Frank Zappa to The Cure but the band’s music at that point didn’t reflect the depth of their musical tastes. I was listening to Joy Division and The Clash at the time.

We played several gigs as The Traumatics with me singing between December 1980 and February 1981 when we changed our name to Sad Lovers & Giants.

Now I’ve read where Tristan Garel-Funk came up with the band name.  As far as you know is there any deep meaning there?

At the time there was quite a music scene in Watford and Simon Blanchard was central to it because he edited a fanzine which was ultimately called Spitfire Parade, an initial idea for the fanzine was to call it Sad Lovers & Giants which breaks down to an acronym of SLAG. To ‘slag’ someone off is to speak badly about them and so one idea was that the fanzine would exist simply to slag off all the bands in Watford. Even TGF didn’t have that many friends so the idea was shelved and resurrected when the band needed a new name.

In itself there is no deep meaning but a bit of context around the creative milieux in which we existed sheds some light. On the one hand there was a strong DIY scene with loads of bands releasing their own singles unrestrained by major record label marketing and a lot of these releases were highly creative. Rough Trade started out like that but quickly became more like a major label when it found they had signed acts like The Smiths. 

On the other hand there were the dying embers of punk which still lingered, albeit in the slightly more refined form commonly known now as Post Punk.

Perhaps the coolest band from that era was Bauhaus who managed to combine all the above elements with an Art referencing name and a theatricality that hadn’t been seen since Ziggy Stardust. Our name didn’t describe a band like that although we too shared post punk credentials and the DIY ethic.

So we chose an untrendy name, why was that? Did we want to go under the radar? Quite the reverse, we wanted to be successful but always entirely on our own terms so the name we chose didn’t kowtow to the conventions of the 80’s music press, the taste makers of the day, we nailed our name to the mast as a band who did everything on our own terms, which is a luxury very few bands can ever hope to maintain.

Prior to signing with Midnight Music you released an EP and single on Last Movement.  Did the single “Colourless Dream” (1982) get any attention?

We were talent scouted by a music industry manager with close links to Warner Bros. who put us in the studio to record our best material at that time which included “Things We Never Did” and “Colourless Dream”. The plan was she would then go to the Midem music industry festival to get us a deal with a major. We pulled out of the management deal before that happened but released the tracks as a single anyway.

Enter John Peel.  The man who single-handedly helped launch the careers of many a band and artist.  How much did the Peel session you did help with your exposure?

The single got played by John Peel on the BBC and was instrumental in us getting a Peel Session later that year.

We also got invited to play a live session in Holland (see photo below) because of the Peel session.

How did you come to sign with Midnight Music?

Midnight originally owned a record shop in north London and had heard the first two singles and the Peel session and wanted to start their own label, we were the first act they contacted to sign to the label.

We needed to record an album but didn’t have the money to do so without outside investment and we reckoned we’d get a lot of artistic freedom from Midnight so we signed with them.

Your first album released on the new label, 1982’s Epic Garden Music did make the Indie charts. 

Yes, it got to number 21.

Do you remember any of your early gigs in and around the UK?  Any favorites?

Following the Peel session and the release of EGM in early 1982 we signed to a major agency, J.S.E. that summer and played over sixty UK gigs in the nine months or so before we split in August 1983. Given that we all worked full time jobs and that we wrote and recorded our second album throughout that time it wasn’t surprising that we were pretty burned out in the end.

My most memorable gig was a one nighter at Preston Warehouse where I collapsed from fatigue in the Watford Gap motorway service station at 4am in the morning. I still managed to be at my desk in the bank by 9am the next morning. 

Garce, do you prefer writing and recording material or playing live?

I prefer writing and recording. I’m perhaps not the most confident of people so getting up on stage in front of an audience and potentially making a fool of myself hasn’t ever been easy. However, being given the name Garce was the permission I needed to put on a mask and become a more assertive character of my own creation. Sometimes at the end of the 80’s it took a bit too much Dutch courage to enable me to pull the whole act off and I didn’t like what I had created. 

Nowadays there is less dissonance between the Garce character and Simon Allard; I don’t drink before going on stage and my performances have become less erratic while at the same time the audiences have continued to grow and so I have been gradually able to hone my skills as a performer. I dare say I enjoy it from time to time now.

I hope you don’t mind I’m going to focus mainly on your Midnight releases.  I’m more familiar with these albums and also for the sake of saving some time. 

My initial aural experience with SLAG was in hearing “A Strange Orchard” on a local alternative radio show.  I was immediately entranced with the moodiness of the song.  Now I’ve always wondered about the lyrics.  There is reference to Lewis Carroll’s “The Walrus and the Carpenter” featured in Alice in Wonderland.  What is the song all about?

I will answer your question with some creative writing: 

It’s a hot summer day in 1983 and we are laying down the backing tracks for our second as yet untitled album. It’s another marathon recording session in the remote village of Streatham, somewhere in rural Cambridgeshire. When not required, Cliff and I sneak out to the local pub for a drink. 

Over the road from the pub is an ancient church surrounded by tall trees with gravestones beneath, sprouting from the ground like mushrooms from a forest floor. Rooks fly noisily from the trees and I shade my eyes from the sun with my hand to look at them. “How is your grandad?” asks Cliff, “He’s not coming out of hospital alive they say.  Is he still reciting that poem, the one about cabbages and kings?”  I mumble something affirmative and in my head Jefferson Airplane are playing White Rabbit which I was listening to on my Sony Walkman on the way to the studio.

I have as yet failed to write the lyrics for the last track we have recorded and I’m beginning to get writers block just thinking about it, that and wondering if anyone will listen to the album if we actually finish it. I exist in a space between dream and reality where I have no power to control my life and I can’t see that anybody will ever give us the recognition I feel we deserve as a band, and…. I feel that we are disintegrating.

Later that weekend I returned home to find my grandfather had died. I had gone to the hospital to visit him, but a kindly nurse turned me away with a slow shake of her head.

Of course the song above came from your 2^nd album Feeding the Flame in 1983.  This LP was almost in constant rotation on my turntable back in the day.  And even now I listen to the CD/MP3 files regularly.  “On Another Day” is another highlight of the album, for me.  I guess you could say I’m atypical of most music fans as I have always gravitated to the slower/moodier numbers.

On Another Day

How did you get the photographic effect on the album cover?

It’s a reflection in a puddle.

Were you pleased with the material on Feeding the Flame?  How well received was the album?

By the time the album was released we had fallen apart. Dave left first, I can’t remember why, then I left because it felt as if we had failed in our attempt to ‘make it’. Consequently I can’t remember how well the album was received although Midnight continued to plug it and the “Man of Straw” single that came from the album.

Man of Straw got played on prime time radio in the UK and apparently the BBC TV show The Oxford Road Show contacted Midnight with a view to us appearing on their show but it was too late.

I never really knew how much John Peel liked us, we never met him and I got the impression it was his producer who pushed for us to get a session, but when he died they catalogued his vast record collection and Feeding the Flame is in there. You can go on-line and look at every record together with his sleeve notes. The stand out tracks for him were “In Flux” and “On Another Day”.

Why did Garel-Funk and drummer Nigel Pollard jump ship to form the Snake Corps?

They didn’t so much jump ship as they were the last two men standing. I think they considered continuing as Sad Lovers & Giants for a while but for whatever reason they became the Snake Corps with Liam McGuinness on bass and Marc singing. 

The final part of the transformation was complete when they replaced Nigel with John Greville.

What can you attribute to your popularity in Germany and The Netherlands?

For whatever reason we weren’t darlings of the music press in the UK and making any positive impression was like swimming against the tide. In other countries we have always found more acceptance.

Curiously in the late 80’s we finally got a Melody Maker feature and some good UK reviews of our fourth album but that was after we’d played some seriously big gigs in Spain and they couldn’t ignore us anymore.

I almost neglected to mention the “Man of Straw” single which I purchased around the same time as the album.   Actually my “go to” track is “Cow Boys”.  Intentional separation of the 2 words?  This one always gets the blood going.  One of my top picks.

I think the separation of the two words to create ambiguity is very perverse and typical SLAG.

Cow Boys

Fast forward to 1987 and The Mirror Test album.  New album, new lineup.  How did you meet and ask Tony McGuinness (guitar), Juliet Sainsbury (keyboards) and Ian Gibson (bass) to come on board?

Tony is the brother of original Snake Corps bassist Liam McGuinness, Juliet was a friend of the owner of the rehearsal studio we used and we advertised in a local paper for a bass player and got Ian.

Now as much as I like Feeding the Flame, I think this one might be my favorite SLAG album.  3 songs in particular, really stand out for me.  “Seven Kinds of Sin” is a really nicely layered song with great guitar work.  “The Green Years”, like “On Another Day”, is a moody, self-reflection song.  But I think the one I listen to most is “House of Clouds”.  Again, great guitar work and I must say the title and music really compliment one another.

There’s a lot of attention paid to the first two albums because they fit neatly into the current idea of what early 80’s post punk was about, as a result The Mirror Test gets ignored but it’s a great album.

Recording it was a torturous process and we weren’t happy with the production but recently it was re-released by Cherry Red so Tony took the opportunity to use all available modern technology to re-mix it and The Mirror Test (Redux) was born, which I believe is nearer the album we intended it to be.

1990’s Headland album is similar in ways to the previous album, but at times a little more driving guitar like on “One Man’s Hell” and the chorus on “My Heart’s on Fire”.  But both songs work.  I also like the beautiful instrumental “Restless” and “Like Thieves”.  “Like thieves we live our lives to please”.  So true!

Prior to Midnight Music folding, the band released 1991’s Treehouse Poetry.  This album has one of my all-time fave SLAG songs, “Christmas on Easter Island”.  I enjoy the intro and once the song begins developing there are moments that bring out those “goose bump” feelings.  And herein is another reference to “thievery” in “we must pay the price of the paradise we stole together”.

Christmas on Easter Island

Now I don’t want to completely forget your most recent releases on Voight-Kampff.  The title track off Melting in the Fullness of Time is gorgeous.

I think your latest, 2018’s Mission Creep, harkens back to the old SLAG sound, only better production and more layered.  A solid album.  By the way, is the cover photograph of a WWI trench?

Yes, and here’s a photograph of us in a genuine WW1 trench in Belgium on 11th November 2018, the day after we played The Milky Way club in Amsterdam.

Briefly, I’m partial to Cranes, Beauty Is Truth, Uncharted Islands, Failed Love Song and Loneliness. 

Backing up a bit to 2016 and the South By Southwest Music Festival in Austin, Texas.  What are your memories of playing there? The reason I ask is I almost went, being from Texas myself. 

The US tour was a massive adventure, everybody said we could never do it because it would cost too much and we weren’t big enough, I made it my personal life’s mission to prove the nay sayers wrong.

We funded it through merch sales and a pledge campaign which raised £7,000 and was based around the release of the Copacetic single which featured an LA radio session for the legendary DJ Michael Stock. 

Getting the US visa was the biggest hurdle and involved hiring a specialist New York Lawyer to present our case which was rejected at first. We re-submitted it with a testimonial from Peter Hook (Joy Division) and it succeeded. I now have a piece of paper from Homeland Security attesting that I am an internationally recognised performing artist.

We got the showcase at SXSW through Michael Stock and his Part Time Punks radio show.

The day after we played SXSW the Austin Chronicle published a review of our showcase with a photo which considering the number of bands they could have chosen to review seemed important to me.

Any future plans to tour the States again, particularly Texas? 

We were in talks to do a festival in Oakland and to revisit the Echoplex in LA and then COVID struck.

 I love Texans, many of them have an innate charm. When Scottie Scheffler won the US Masters everybody said how composed and level headed he was but I just thought he was like a lot of charming Texans I’ve met.

I have to bring up the 2 Cherry Red compilation releases.  Have you noticed an increased awareness of SLAG and perhaps a new(er) fan base as a result of these? 

Last weekend we played a London gig to celebrate the 40th anniversary of Epic Garden Music which we played as a first set before doing a full blown set from our entire back catalogue. It was a magical night, we were on fire and gave one of the best performances of our career. But what fascinated me was the age of the audience; they weren’t old blokes in anoraks, although some were, they were young student types, a significant number were female and there were fans from all over the world.

The new Netflix series, The Andy Warhol Diaries features our track “Colourless Dream” in the second episode and I’m beginning to think we might be about to be discovered as a lost 80’s gem (again!!)

Garce, on a composition level, how do you write?  Where do you draw your inspiration?

I will talk about my lyric writing rather than the music I write, which largely comes out in a rough form like the demo of Beauty is Truth and then gets knocked into shape by the band.

I usually already have the backing track which Tony has recorded from one of his ideas so I first write a rudimentary melody with nonsense words just to shape out the song. Then I start with a title from my collection of titles that I jot down as they come to me.

I will then branch out from the title to explore what might be the idea behind the song, and as words come to me I adjust the phrasing and melody as I go until I have a complete song idea which I record at home and send to the band.

We then work on the song together in rehearsal and refine it and re-record it, possibly even take it on the road before the final recording that gets released. It can take years from inception to release. We have enough songs now for another album that are all at some point in this process.

Any immediate or future plans for yourself and/or Sad Lovers and Giants?

We’ve just done some gigs in Italy which are the first since Brexit and COVID so we’ve proven that it’s still possible for UK acts to play in some countries in Europe. In May we return to Athens for three nights at a venue where we pulled 700 the last time we played there.

Then we take a break for the rest of the year to finish writing and recording the next album.

Lastly, talk about your family and any interests outside of music.

I am lucky to have been supported throughout my music career by my wife who even broke off our honeymoon to travel from Cornwall to Cambridgeshire with me to record part of Epic Garden Music.

Outside of music I am a keen artist and have recently gained an upper second class degree in Creative Arts so I am a Bachelor of Arts with honours. I make artists books, static objects and short films exploring personal identity.

Garce, thanks so much for your time and for sharing.  Best of luck always.

Thanks Greg, your questions were well-informed and I enjoyed answering them.

New Bob Lind Album

Bob Lind’s new album, SOMETHING WORSE THAN LONELINESS, is due out on February 25. This will be Bob’s 3rd album of new music over the last 10 years. As with the last two (FINDING YOU AGAIN and MAGELLAN WAS WRONG), this one will be coming out on ACE Big Beat Records. And once again, the incredible Jamie Hoover is producing. The liner notes are provided by the venerable Jeff Tamarkin, arguably the most highly respected music journalist in America.

New YouTube channel

I’ve started a video interview channel on YouTube

Check it out here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHRkeoY6NNhcGNclBoyhfYA/videos

Jeff Murphy of Shoes

Question:  In the history of rock music how many bands can you name from Zion, Illinois?  Using one hand?  Give up?  How about power pop rockers Shoes?  I’m not a big one for labels, but if we do categorize Shoes as “power pop”, the band has always infused more texture, melody, versatility and multi-dimension in their songs than most of that genre.  Who remembers 1979’s Present Tense album?  A classic late 70’s album that’s still being heard today. The interest in Shoes material has been aided by two Cherry Red released compilations of Shoes’ back catalog, which are always “sold out”, by the way.  Perhaps we’re seeing a resurgence in interest in the band and a confirmation of just how good Shoes really are.  Well, the subject of this interview is Present Tense.  Singer/songwriter/guitarist Jeff Murphy has been gracious enough to take some time out of his schedule to answer a few questions.  I have relied heavily on Jeff’s book “Birth of a Band, The Record Deal And The Making of “Present Tense” as a reference point for many questions.

Hey Jeff, thanks for agreeing to this musical “inquisition” as it were.

It’s my pleasure, Greg!  Feel  free to ask away.

First off, how have you fared throughout this COVID-19 pandemic and social distancing?

It’s been a tough year, but my wife and I are now fully vaccinated.  So there’s a light at the end of the tunnel.  I know John and Gary are fully vaxxed now, too.  So, we can start to get together again and hopefully, do some recording.

What was your home life like growing up in Zion, Illinois?

Well, my early childhood memories are marred by the fact that our father left one day, never to be seen or heard from again.  I was 7 and John was 8.  But we lived in a close-knit neighborhood with lots of good friends.  A few years later The Beatles appeared on Ed Sullivan and music became a major focus.

What did your parents do?

My father worked at a local Silvertone electronics plant and my mom was a stay-at-home mom, until he left.  Then she took a job at Sears.

How many siblings?

Besides John, I have a half-sister and a step-brother from when my mom re-married years later.

Age difference between you and John?   Any sibling rivalry growing up?

We’re what they call Irish twins; almost exactly 1 year apart. John is 1 year and 10 days older than me.  Of course we had our tussles when we were young.  But I think we developed an incredibly strong bond once my father left.  But he was always very good at art and I can’t draw a straight line.  I was jealous of that until I found my own focus.

At one point in your book you referenced a Chicago Cub baseball game.  Were you a baseball fan growing up?

We grew up with a sandlot directly behind our house and during the summer we would play baseball virtually every day.  Zion is located almost exactly mid-way between Chicago and Milwaukee (There was the Milwaukee Braves, back then) so we followed both teams.  It narrowed to just The Cubs once The Braves left Milwaukee.

Can you recall how you first became interested in music?

Our earliest musical exposure was to the novelty songs of the day; “Alley Oop”, “Big John”, “Purple People Eater”, “Surfin’ Bird, etc. When the Beatles appeared on the Ed Sullivan show it jump-started the British Invasion which jump-started the movement of garage bands all across the country.  By the time we were adolescents we wished we could be in a band, but didn’t have any musical knowledge or instruments.  But along with thousands of other kids our age, we dreamed of being in a band.

Were there any local record shops in Zion?  Can you recall one of the first 45’s or LP’s you bought?

John and I got a record player years before the Beatles appeared and we got the single “Jingle Bell Rock”.  We also had novelty albums by The Chipmunks and some comedy records.  The first single that I remember asking for was “Green, Green” by the New Christy Minstrels (Roger McGuinn’s old band).  The first single I bought was “She Loves You” by The Beatles (on the Swan record label) and the first album John and I jointly asked for was The Beatles Second Album.  These were all purchased at department stores like Goldblatt’s and Ben Franklin.  Eventually, an independent record store called Strawberry Fields opened and became our musical Mecca.  That was in the neighboring town of Waukegan, IL.  Later, a small record shop named Brothers opened in Zion.

What bands were you into growing up?

Mainly The Beatles.  But The British Invasion bands dominated Chicago AM radio, so it all had a major impact; those “Pop” bands of the early 1960s, Motown, the bands from Philly, San Francisco, Paul Revere & The Raiders and The Monkees, too.  As rock grew, so did our tastes and musical influences.  By the late 1960s and early 1970s we migrated to bands that were more off the beaten track; Love, early David Bowie, Big Star, Todd Rundgren, Nils Lofgren, early King Crimson, Earth Opera, etc.

At what age did you get into printing for a living?  How did this experience later help with the band Shoes?

I was working at a local Radio Shack store when I graduated high school, but I needed more money and a friend of mine worked in an envelope factory and got me a job there as a materials handler.  I eventually progressed into the printing end of that.  It later gave me insights into some aspects of printing some of the promo posters and record sleeves and inserts we started doing for the band (along with John and Gary’s graphic design ability).

Talk about how the whole idea of forming a band came about.  How were you introduced to both Gary Klebe and later Skip Meyer?

John wanted to be in a band and tried to wrangle together some sort of musical thing in Jr. High, which lasted for about 3 weeks.  When he met Gary in high school, they both worked on an independent (not school sanctioned) school paper they called Lime Magazine with some friends they called The Lime Boys.  It was like a high school version of The National Lampoon magazine.  John drew the cartoons.  They eventually learned they had similar musical tastes and fantasized of having a band.  They called it Shoes, but there was really no band yet, just the idea of a band.  Gary and I were hi-fi nuts and we both had reel-to-reel tape recorders. By the time they graduated they started tinkering with recording some bits on Gary’s stereo tape recorder.  I had gotten a cheap guitar from a friend and was recording things on my own. Some time in 1973 or early 1974, I bought the 4-channel, TEAC 3340S tape machine and we started recording things together.

We met Skip years later, around mid-1976 after we had already been recording for a number of years, as Shoes and had already played our first live gig.  Our then-drummer, Barry Shumaker and I rented a house together, so we had a place to live, record and rehearse.  After that first gig Barry decided to quit the band (at the prompting of his girlfriend) so, we were in need of a new drummer.  Skip was playing in a local cover band and happened to be dating Gary’s sister.  John went to see his band play and reported back to us that he seemed steady and not overly flashy.  So we asked him to join in mid-1976.  We started rehearsing together and played a few gigs and then, a few months later, we started recording the Black Vinyl Shoes album in my little rental house.

The early days. L-R John, Gary and Jeff

Was the guitar your primary instrument of choice?

Absolutely.  But I love the sound of just about any stringed instrument.

Who came up with the name “Shoes”?

John and Gary were batting around ideas, but I’m pretty sure it was John’s idea.  It was simple, unassuming and graphically, a symmetrical looking word.  Plus, we liked that there was no pronoun (no “The”).  Like Wings, Sparks, Queen, T. Rex or Cream.  Ironically, those are all English bands.

Black Vinyl Records was your own record label.  You guys must have known early on the importance of maintaining the copyrights and publishing rights to your music.

We were very lucky that we never lost any of our copyrights or publishing rights.  We thank Greg Shaw from BOMP! Records and Dan Bourgoise of Bug Music, for that.  They educated us on the importance of maintaining control over the publishing rights and the options we had.  We ended up starting our own publishing companies with Bug Music Group doing our administration, in 1977.  BMG administers our catalog, now because they absorbed Bug Music.

Has any other band ever recorded on Black Vinyl?

Well, in 1991 put together a CD project called Yuletunes that was an alternative Christmas album of original songs by us and various other artists. We released it on Black Vinyl Records.   And we did start another publishing company for some of the unpublished songs on that Yuletunes CD that we released on Black Vinyl Records. In the early 1990s, we thought it would be beneficial to expand the label and start releasing things by other bands. There were a number of releases that we did on BVR that were actually fairly notable.  At one point, MOJO magazine called out a number of the releases and included 5 of our BVR releases in their top 10.  The albums, “Oh, Yeah!” and “Textural Drone Thing” by the Spongetones were the first of these releases, followed by “Northern Distortion” by Fun w/Atoms, “Bloody Show” by The Nicholas Tremulis Band, “92 Degrees” by 92 Degrees and “Kadickadee Kadickadoo (A True Story)” by Swingset Police.  Then there was the “Beat & Torn” CD by The Spongetones, which was a 2-album on one CD re-release of their albums; “Beat Music” and “Torn Apart”. But when indie distribution started to deteriorate, it led to a massive problem for us as distributors started to return product and declare bankruptcy, without paying for the CDs they had ordered.  Worse yet, as distributors went belly-up their assets would be sold off to appease their creditors and the CDs that they had would be bought, for pennies on the dollar, by other distributors.  These liquidated CDs would then be returned to us for full credit, by the new distributors.  So not only were we not paid for the original CD shipments, we were actually crediting full-wholesale price for the return of our own product!  It was what caused us to scale back and discontinue signing bands to BVR. We retreated to only selling Shoes releases and only to select distributors, online services and through our own direct mail-order on Shoeswire.com.

 I also did a side project and started a publishing company called Nerktwons (ASCAP) in 1997 for that and my solo record, Cantilever. 

Enter 1977’s self-produced and home recorded “Black Vinyl Shoes”.  How satisfying was having complete creative control in producing this album?

Well, it was great. But our goal was to reach a point that we’d sign a contract with a major label and they’d do all the nuts and bolts aspect of releasing a record.  In theory, the artist creates the art and the record label manufactures, distributes and promotes the art.  Unfortunately in practice, the label wants to influence and control the artist and the content of the creation.

In the networking, production and manufacturing of the album did you use any other band’s work as a template or come up with the process all on your own?

It was pretty much trial and error.  By the time we recorded BVS we had already recorded over 3 albums of material on that 4-track machine and had pressed up one previous LP, One In Versailles on our own.  In our minds, we were competing with the big dogs, the established artists and we would listen to The Beatles or Fleetwood Mac or Led Zeppelin and aspire to that level of sound quality.  For the artwork, it was easier to compete, but a lot more labor intensive to put it all together ourselves.  All the stress, money and worry for the manufacturing and distribution and all the problems that we encountered during that whole process is something a lot of bands never know.  I guess the same can be said for the recording and production.  We never just sat back and let the engineer and producer take over.  We were always involved and co-produced and co-engineered, even after we signed our deal with Elektra.

Before signing your first record contract with someone outside of the band, were you a little scared, anxious after knowing about some of the horror stories in the music business?

Yes, a bit.  But we tried to keep our eyes open and our wits about us.  We were very fortunate to align with some of the people that we did, like Dan Bourgoise who we asked to manage us.  We looked for honesty and respect in those around us.

Talk about signing with Bug Music.

When Greg Shaw asked us to record a single or his label, BOMP! he also asked if we wanted to have him do the publishing or if we wanted to set up our own company, like he did with Bug Music.  We knew it would be better to own as much of the publishing as possible, so we contacted Dan at Bug and set up Shoetunes in 1977.  It’s a testament to Greg’s honesty that he offered that possibility.  Some labels require that they get a portion of the publishing or they won’t do the record deal.

The song “Tomorrow Night” first showed up as a b-side to a single.  Were there any other tracks on Present Tense that were written much earlier in your career?

They always say that you have your entire life to write your first album and 6 months to write the second album.  But we were in a constant state of writing and demoing songs from 1974 through 1984.  So there were often songs that were written well in advance of when they actually showed up on a release.  As an example, “See Me”, the first leg of the song, “Three Times” was written and demoed on the 4-track machine as a short little ditty, not long after BVS was recorded.  I had intentionally clipped the last chord short, as homage to The Beatles’ song, “Her Majesty”.  John suggested that he and Gary write companion pieces and string them all together in a short medley.  That original 4-track demo shows up on the 2020 cd boxset, “Elektrafied, The Elektra Years 1978-1982” from Cherry Red Records in the UK.

This tune was a staple of our live set in the late 1970s, but we never got past this 8-track demo stage with it, so it was never on an album until the limited-edition “As-Is” release in 1996 and then again on the “Double Exposure” release in 2007. We later included it on the 2018 UK box set, “Black Vinyl Shoes Anthology 1973-1978”.

“Ever Again” (Demo)

Describe the basement where you recorded the demos for Present Tense.

We always kept moving forward and trying to move to the next level.  After BVS and the wave of press and modest success that we achieved with that album, we were emboldened to rent a designated rehearsal/recording space and move everything out of my Livingroom (and kitchen and bedroom).  At this time we also purchased a new Tascam 80-8, 8-track recorder and a used Tascam Model 5 mixer with expander module. That way, everyone had equal access, to write and record without me being there.  We found an available space in Zion’s downtown business section, in the basement under a bridal shop.  We briefly shared a section of that space with the local Weight Watchers group. But we soon took over the entire space.  We stayed there from 1978 until early 1983, when we bought our 16-track recorder and built our first official recording studio.

I understand you guys preferred recording to playing live.  Looking back now, do you wish you had played more live gigs?

We did what we had to do.  Playing live was often frustrating and expensive.  Over the years we got more used to it and hopefully, better at it.  In the beginning, clubs wanted cover songs and we wanted to play our original material.  So, we’d mix in obscure cover songs, so we could honestly say, “Sure, we play cover songs!”  But they were often lesser known songs like “Silly Love” by 10CC or “Moon Tears” by Nils Lofgren and “Smash Your Head Against The Wall” by John Entwhistle.  But we also did “You Really Got Me” by the Kinks (pre-Van Halen), “Jeepster” by T. Rex, “I Can’t Explain” by The Who and “Jump Into the Fire” by Harry Nilsson as the more recognizable cover songs.  We even did a Ramones-style version of “Him or Me” by Paul Revere and The Raiders.

In shopping around Shoes for a major label contract, how surprised were you in Elektra’s interest?

Well, things started to get pretty hectic in early 1978-79 and we had already had a few meetings with Seymour Stein of Sire Records.  But he left for the MIDEM music conference in France in mid-January and Elektra came calling shortly after that.  They had heard of us from the BVS re-issue we did through PVC/Passport Records in late ’78.  But, it felt right with Elektra.

Kenny Buttice was Elektra’s V.P. of Promotion.  How was he to work with?

Kenny was the man that changed our trajectory.  He had never signed a band before and was looking to move into an A&R position at Elektra when he made a trip to NYC and met with some of the folks in their east coast office.  Former WBCN DJ, Maxine Sartori had been recently hired after being instrumental in Elektra finding and signing the Cars, which had just broke big.  She knew of Shoes through the BVS re-release on PVC. Marty Swartz had discovered Shoes when visiting Bleecker Bob’s record store and they were playing the BVS album in the store.  They both introduced Shoes to Kenny and he decided to fly in to Zion with Marty to check us out.  He was our main man and cheerleader at the company.  Until he wasn’t.

You guys flew out to Los Angeles in ’79 to negotiate the contract with Elektra.  Was L.A. a bit of a culture shock?

Completely!  It was a record-setting cold and snowy winter in the Midwest and when Kenny and Marty pulled up in their limo to meet us, they were astonished at the amount of snow.  It was like driving through snow tunnels.  They joked, “Where in the hell are we?”  We played them our demos for what became Present Tense, went to dinner, had a few drinks and then we went to our rehearsal space and played some songs for them, live.  A few weeks later, they sent us tickets to fly to LA and when we stepped off the plane, it was 80 degrees and sunny and there were girls on roller skates in shorts and halter-tops all over the place.  We thought we had died and gone to heaven!  John and I had never been on a plane before that.

I’ve heard having publishing rights is everything in the music industry.  In finalizing the contract, how hard was it to keep all your publishing rights?

Actually, it didn’t seem hard at all.  They asked about our publishing and we told them we had already signed a deal with Bug Music for our publishing (which was with Shoetunes, our own publishing company) and they said, “OK” and left it at that.  We also negotiated for a 100% rate for publishing on our records (rather than the 75% “preferred-discount rate” that many labels were asking for) AND we insisted on being paid publishing for 12 songs per album, rather than being limited to just 10 songs, that had also become an “industry standard”.  The publishing is indeed, very important and becomes your main revenue stream over the years, because publishing royalties are not subject to recouping any recording, touring or video costs.  You also get paid from the very first record sold and you own those rights and revenues for your lifetime, plus 70 years!

Talk about some of the technical difficulties you ran into in the Village recording sessions.

We made a couple of trips to LA while negotiating and on one of those trips they asked if we’d like to go into the studio and do some demos.  So, they took us to S.I.R. (Studio Instrument Rentals) and we picked out some drums, amps and guitars.  Then, rather than book us time at a small demo studio, they booked us time at The Village Recorder, where Fleetwood Mac was recording the Tusk album in one of the rooms next door!  They called in David Malloy to oversee and “produce” our demo session.  David had just scored a hit with Eddie Rabbit on “I Love A Rainy Night”.  We knew he wasn’t too happy being called in to do demos on a weekend, with an un-signed band.  We had the worst luck with the gear as, at least one of the vintage Pultec outboard EQ units went up in flames and the logic on the Ampex 24-track tape machine lost its mind while rewinding our tape and ran free, spilling our wrinkled tape onto the floor as the engineer slapped furiously at the reels to try and stop it.  They also had a number of channels fail in the main Harrison console.  It was not a productive session.  When we went back to the studio years later to mix our Tongue Twister album, they were still talking about this tragic disaster of a session they had happen years before.  They didn’t realize WE were the band in that tragedy.

Who is Mike Stone and how did you first find out about him?  What elements did Mike bring to the “mix” as it were?

We interviewed quite a parade of producers before we settled on Mike Stone.  I remember having face to face meetings and phone calls with producers like Barry Mraz, Keith Olsen, Chris Kimsey, Kim Fowley, David Tannenbaum, Martin Rushent, Steve Goodman, Craig Leon and others.  Time was ticking and we were getting frustrated.  Someone at the label suggested Mike Stone who had worked with Queen and even done some of the Kiss solo records.  We met with him and hit it off.  We had a shared sense of humor and we just clicked.  He suggested recording at The Manor in England and we loved the idea. 

But as we were working, we realized that he had a different approach than us and some strict ideas about certain things.  He frowned on us listening to or referencing our demos, which we needed to remember things from song to song.  He also didn’t think John (who mainly played bass) should be playing guitar on the songs he wrote; “You’re the bass player, NOT the guitar player!” In the mixing stage there were discussions about the “right way and wrong way to mix drums”.  His view was, “There’s one way to mix drums, and THIS is it!”  We disagreed, and were able to reach a mutually acceptable compromise.

But aside from all that, we learned a lot from Mike and managed to produce a record we are still very proud of to this day.

The band were scheduled to fly to California for photo shoots including what would become the cover of Present Tense.  Talk about your brush with fate, i.e. Flight 191. 

Once we decided on Mike Stone as the producer for Present Tense there was a rush to get publicity and things done for the album artwork.  We were to fly out to LA for the cover photo shoot and the flight was booked for early afternoon on Friday May 25^th, 1979.  We were excited about the date because it was Memorial Day weekend and we figured we’d have a few extra days in LA with little to do, because the offices were closed for the holiday.  Like a paid vacation. We were packed and ready to go on Thursday when we received a phone call for the LA office that they had realized it was a holiday weekend and cancelled our flights to be rebooked later that week.  We were really upset that they would shift our schedule at the last minute and further delay the process.  But what could we do?  We were together driving to lunch or something when the news came over the radio that the flight we had been booked on, American Airlines flight 191 had crashed on take-off, killing everyone on board.  We contacted our parents and friends to let them know that we weren’t on the flight and counted our blessings.  Some folks at Elektra reasoned that it was a “sign from God” that we were destined for great success.  Either way, we were still alive.

It’s interesting about the album cover design.  First, I didn’t make the connection it was designed by the guy who did the first Cars’ cover.  Secondly, I had no idea that your pictures on the cover were actually individual shots cropped together.

Yes, the concept of the album art sounded better than it turned out to appear.  The art department at Elektra described this “new technique” where they could bleach the color out of specific areas of a photo, leaving the color in the rest.  It sounded interesting and the concept was that there were windows of color that we aligned with on the front cover, in the “present tense”, but on the back we would have moved and the color windows no longer aligned with us.  We were shown the photo proofs and mock up just before we boarded the plane to England, literally in the Sky Lounge at the airport.  We were disappointed with the end result, but there was no time to start over without bumping the tight release schedule for the album.  So we approved it.

You were all set to record the album in England.  Quite a trove of equipment you had exported there.  Several Gibson brand guitars were included in the shipment.  Has Gibson always been your “go to” guitar?  What is it about this guitar that you like versus other brands?

We actually took a number of brands and models, Gibson, Fender, Hamer and Ibanez.  Electric and acoustic, 6 and 12-string guitars and John’s Gibson Thunderbird bass and 8-string Hamer bass.  We used a combination of those. But for me, my go-to electric guitar was my Gibson RD Standard and Gary leaned on his custom-made, all white Hamer Sunburst. Gary tended to use Marshall amps and I mainly used Hiwatt amps. They were British made amps, so we rented those and a Mesa Boogie 1 x 12.  John played through an Ampeg B-15 flip-top.

What were your initial impressions of London?  How was the band’s reception?  Did you enjoy sightseeing?

It was all a wonderful experience to be in such an historic place.  The first week was spent sightseeing and doing interviews. We were treated well and enjoyed staying in London for that first week after arrival, while our equipment cleared customs.  We moved out to the studio in Oxfordshire after that and recorded there for about 6 weeks or so, before moving back to London to mix at Trident Studios in Soho. The entire trip was a great experience and remains one of the high points of our tenure with Elektra.

The Manor was chosen as the recording venue.  It’s also quite a nice place to be “holed up” while recording, eh?

We were isolated from any record company pressures, had full run of the grounds and amenities and were in our element, with round the clock access to the studio.  The house was maintained by an all-female staff that worked on rotating shifts and would make breakfast, lunch and do the laundry or run errands.  If we asked for a snack or round of Guinness at 2 AM, they were there to accommodate.  Even our tape op was a girl from Germany named Maris Dunklau. A Cordon Bleu chef came in and made us gourmet dinners every week night.  There were also 2 pools, a tennis court and a go-kart track, so we had ways to relieve the pressure of recording.  It was a great experience.

Funny how you found a big rock to anchor the bass drum.  Hmmm is that why they call it “rock ‘n’ roll”?

It was an organic problem solved organically.

Did you like the studio layout and acoustics?

The studio was great, but there were also tie-lines into the main manor house.  So we were able to move the drums into the more reverberant snooker room and use one of the bathrooms as a place to record guitars with more room ambience. 

For the most part, were you pleased with the recording of the album?

Yes, the recording went well and we were very happy with it.  It was in the mixing stages that we bumped heads with Mike, a bit.  But we ended up with something we were happy with and proud of.

At this point I’d just like to make a few observations of my own on some of the tracks.  I appreciate your feedback.

On “Tomorrow Night” I think the chunky bass really makes the song.  Is that a Stratocaster I hear in there?

Yeah, the combination of John’s Gibson Thunderbird bass and that Ampeg B-15 tube amp really growled! It’s a combination of clean and distorted guitars.  For the clean sounds it was often the Fender Strat and Ibanez Artist.  I believe Gary used his Hamer for the rhythm chords.

I think the rhythm section in “Too Late” is really tight.  Of course I enjoy Gary’s vocals, especially at the end and how the backing harmony vocals go up a scale.

That song was a bit of a sleeper for us.  It wasn’t until we finished mixing it that we realized it’s potential.  It’s gone on to become one of the songs most identified with us.

Ok, my all time favorite Shoes song is “Your Very Eyes”.  I know you have a great affinity for that track as well.  I never tire of hearing it and it always gives me goose bumps.  A classic!  I imagine tons of female listeners swoon upon hearing this one.

John seems to have the ability to write these great, melodic ballads like that one, Karen, Turn Around, In My Mind, etc.  There’s just something about the way he constructs his lyrics and melodies.

Talk about how you got that background guitar sound on “Now and Then”.

Well, the background guitar bit that happens after the chorus vocal line is actually a backwards guitar.  John and Gary wrote that song and that cha-cha-cha-cha staggered rhythm that comes at the end of each verse was inspired by the Dr. Rhythm drum machine they were using to write to.  It added a variation that we thought was cool.

I love the guitar intro and outro on “Every Girl”.  That right there shows a talent on guitar much more than 3 chords.  This is one of my faves.  Nice harmony vocals too.

I love noodling off a D chord.  I did a similar thing on The Summer Rain. So many great songs were written that way, like Something by The Beatles, except that’s capoed-up 7 frets. 

Not so much my impression, but talk about the song “I Don’t Miss You” and the story of the recording and the “metronome”.

That’s a perfect example to us that you should always bring the gear that you normally use, no matter where you’re recording.  Skip’s original drum pattern was initially very straight forward.  But when we demoed it, we ran it through a Roland RE-201 Space Echo that had multiple playback heads that allowed multi-tap delays.  (Remember this is all done before digital delays were around much.) Those echo slaps created an alternate rhythm syncopation.  But we didn’t take that RE-201 with us to England (different power voltage there) and Skip was having a hard time laying down the drums without it.  He became so frustrated with himself that he threw his drumsticks across the room, at one point.  Very uncharacteristic for Skip’s normally laid-back temperament.  So, we sent one of the girls into town to buy a small electronic metronome.  We put a microphone on that and fed it into Skip and John’s headphones at extremely high volume.  It gave them both major headaches, but they got the basic track down.

I had always wondered how “Three Times” came together as a song.  I like how you brought together 3 partial songs, written individually by you, John and Gary, and came up with one fine medley. 

Like I discussed earlier, it was a successful song that came out of trying something a bit different.  On the Ignition album, there’s a 3-way collaboration song called, “Say It Like You Mean It” where we each wrote a section; Gary wrote the verse, I wrote the chorus and John wrote the bridge and we each sing lead in our respective section.  “Girls of Today” on Tongue Twister was another example of us each focusing in on a section.  We enjoy doing those types of song collaborations.

“I Don’t Wanna Hear It” was the first song I heard off the album.  I think it was being played on a local radio station.  It’s the type of song that really gets the head bobbing and brings out the air guitar player, at least in me! 

Written as a Ramones homage; short and fast.  The original demo was even shorter, with only one solo section. But when we were recording the final in England Mike Stone suggested a second solo section, which panicked me a bit.  I’m not really that type of soloing guitar player, so I had to retreat to my room at the Manor and come up with something quick.  When I had something I liked, we recorded those solo bits with the Mesa Boogie combo amp in a downstairs bathroom to get ambience and that feedback that happens at the end of the second solo.

After recording at The Manor, you moved to Trident Studios in London to do the mastering.  How was Trident?

Historic and mythical.  So much history there.  Many of our favorite bands had recorded there; The Beatles, T. Rex, David Bowie and on and on.  They made a point to point out the Bechstein piano that was reportedly used to record “Hey Jude” and “Bohemian Rhapsody”.

The band also worked at The Townhouse.  Interesting story on how you ran across the band The Jam while there.  The Jam have always been one of my favorite groups.  Did you get a chance to talk to Paul Weller?

We actually didn’t record anything at The Townhouse.  We just boarded there while we were mixing at Trident.  Richard Branson owned The Manor and The Townhouse studios and it was a nice courtesy to put us up there while we worked at Trident.  We would bump into the guys in The Jam in the game room or during meals.  But I never had any in-depth conversations with any of them.  I don’t know if John or Gary did.

The mixing process took some time, huh?

We mixed a song or two per day, depending on the song and the schedule.  We had to make sure we had time to finish a mix, if we started it late in the day and there was something else booked in after our session the next day.  Because, they didn’t have any type of automation or “snapshot” technology back then.  

As far as the tracking order for songs on Present Tense did you guys try to evenly balance the slower tempo, mid tempo and rocking tracks?

We approach album song sequencing very seriously to develop a sense of pacing and flow.  Sometimes it can be jolting, like the segue way from “Three Times” to “I Don’t Want To Hear It”  at the end of side one on Present Tense or from “Karen” to “She Satisfies” at the end of side one on Tongue Twister. There is no right or wrong way to do it.  Just a way that “feels” right.  The 3 of us are almost always in sync with each other on what works best with that stuff.

Shoes were at the vanguard of the video revolution.  Talk about how you chose the 4 songs for video shoot.  So you sort of liked the way “Tomorrow Night” turned out?

Video was in its infancy in the US, but in Europe they were well into using it as a medium to promote music.  While we were in England recording Present Tense we would see videos of English bands like The Buggles, The Boomtown Rats and M.  When we came back to the US, the label decided we should film some promo clips for the European market and we chose “Too Late” and “Tomorrow Night”, figuring they would be singles, at some point.  I don’t recall the rationale behind doing “In My Arms Again” and “Cruel You”.  We hated the sterile, harsh look of video tape, as opposed to shooting on film, but video tape was much cheaper than film.  So, to soften the look of things, we decided to film the last song, Tomorrow Night with a healthy dose of fog, to try and emulate the softer look of film.  We waited until the end of the shoot, so it didn’t fog up the set for the other songs. If it didn’t work, at least it was only the last song.  We joked that it looked like Shoes were playing in hell, because it was very late and very hot.

Interesting you were one of the first bands played on the fledgling MTV.  What was MTV’s response to your songs/videos?  How much did the video exposure help promote the album?

Elektra was losing patience with us by mid-1981.  We didn’t have a hit, yet and we had started writing songs for our 3^rd album.  When MTV came on the air in August of 1981 and they put our 4 videos into rotation, there was quite a surge of interest and mail from the public, but Elektra remained unmoved.  The videos were from the 1^st album and we had no videos for the second album.  We tried to convince Elektra to do more videos, because MTV was literally asking us for more clips, but Elektra said, “Nope.  Don’t worry; MTV is just a flash in the pan.”

Present Tense did fairly well upon release, correct?

Yes, out of the box it started moving up the charts.  It peaked at #50 on Billboards Hot 100 Albums chart, but started to fall by Mid-November. Too bad MTV was still 2 years away.

Your best reception was on the West and East coasts.  Can you explain why the album didn’t sell as well in the Midwest, especially in Chicago?

We always felt there was a bit of resentment in the Midwest because we didn’t come up the traditional way of playing gigs for years to build a fan base.  We always focused more on the recording aspect and Chicago was known as a “bandwagon city”; they wouldn’t take the lead in breaking an artist, they would jump on once things were already rolling.  The fact that Elektra had released 4 singles in the span of 10 weeks didn’t help.  Radio couldn’t decide what they were supposed to play.

Date with fate, #2.  In November ’79 Shoes began on a 3 week tour throughout the Midwest.  The Who were also touring.  Were they on the same tour or separate?  Talk about the Time Magazine proposed article and what transpired.

It was pretty much a disaster tour for us!  The tour started the last week of November of ’79.  TIME magazine had decided to run a cover story on The Next Generation of Rock which was to feature The Who (on the cover) and a feature article about them.  As a “sidebar” article they were doing a companion piece about The Next Generation of Rock featuring Shoes.  So, they sent out a writer and photographer to follow us around from the beginning of the tour.  It was a total disaster from the first show!

We didn’t have a lot of road experience and we decided to start out in the Midwest.  Not knowing any soundmen or roadies, we asked the label to find us a road crew.  They flew out some very inexperienced guys from LA that knew nothing about Chicago’s winter weather (they got off the plane in t-shirts and had no coats) and knew even less about running sound and being roadies.  During the first show they literally blew out our entire monitor system with the loudest feedback I had ever heard in my life. It was so loud it literally made me dizzy.   After our soundcheck, they re-strung my guitars improperly, so when I hit the first chord of the show; 3 of the strings were pulled off of the guitar.  It was horrible!  We fired the soundman after that show and after a week of similar disasters, we decided to stop the tour after the December 13th show in Detroit. It should be noted that a week after our first show, on December 3rd, 1979 The Who played in Cincinnati and several people were crushed to death in a rush to get good seats (general admission seating).  As a result of this tragedy, THAT became the focus of the TIME magazine piece and our feature was dropped.  I shudder to think what it might have said about us!

After Present Tense, Shoes have released 6 more studio albums.  What are some of your highlights from these releases.

Each album has its own highlights and memories for us.  After working in England on Present Tense, we recorded the next album in LA with Richard Dashut (Fleetwood Mac) at United Western Studio A, which was one of the most historic and best sounding studios we ever worked at. We did overdubs at a few other studios and mixed at The Village Recorder.  After that, we worked in Chicago at The Chicago Recording Company (CRC) which had a fantastic Cadac console.  From that point (1983) on we recorded ourselves at our own studio, Short Order Recorder which changed, expanded and grew into an official recording studio through the years, where we recorded and produced many, many bands. As digital started to be more widely accepted, we eventually sold our analog gear and the building in 2004 and built studios in our homes, to continue working.

The later years L-R Gary, Jeff, John

You mention The Beatles quite a bit throughout your book.  Obviously they were a huge influence.

They were the touchstone for us and thousands of other bands and musicians, over the years that followed.  In the short period of 8 years they recorded 13 albums of the highest quality and were constantly growing, changing and maturing.  So many things they did had never been done before and the music industry had to grow, to accommodate their success.  From their live performances to their recording techniques, they pushed the envelope.  They were also a great case study of what to do and what not to do from a business stand point.

Were there other bands you liked or were listening to in the late 70’s, early 80’s?

We were influenced by everything around us.  John, in particular would read and discover new music that influenced our direction.  Like Big Star, Nils Lofgren, Todd Rundgren, T. Rex and early David Bowie. These were all before they were discovered by the mainstream music listener.  We’re still listening and searching for new music that excites us.

I’m sure most our readers will recognize this song. Nice cover version.

“If You Want My Love“

Cheap Trick are from our area so we were able to see them in their very early stages and we were really inspired by their musical choices and professional approach from the very beginning. They stood out from the fray and had a huge impact on us. “If You Want My Love” is one of the only cover songs we’ve ever recorded. We were asked to do it for a proposed tribute album that never materialized.

Drummer Skip Meyer passed away in 2014.  What would you like the reader to remember most about Skip?

Skip was an all-around great guy.  He was easy going, laid-back and a fun guy to be around.  He would always try to make the best of any situation.  But as we focused more and more on being in the studio, we played less shows and this was when he became less interested in drumming.  Skip was very popular, socially and due to the fact that John, Gary and I were always in the studio recording, he was much more visible to our friends in the area.  Folks would say to us, “Oh yeah, you’re in Skip’s band!” He retired from drumming in 1984.  Even though we didn’t see him all that often, we remained friends until his passing.

Here’s something I always ask in every interview.  How do you write songs?  Do you come up with a melody first and then lyrics around the tune or words, then music?

It varies.  Sometimes I stumble across a chord progression I like or a riff I want to use and sometimes I get a word or phrase that inspires more pursuit.  Every time you write a song you plant a little landmine for yourself; can’t use that word phrase again, can’t use that chord progression again, etc. Can The Rolling Stones ever write another song with the word “satisfaction” in it? Words are always the most difficult thing; trying to say something without being trite or redundant.  Something simple, yet heartfelt. Rock lyrics can be pretty lame when seen on paper without the music, but you hope to minimize the cringe factor.  Sometimes it comes easy, but most times it comes hard. Don’t step on that landmine!

Jeff, talk some about your personal life these days.

Life is good.  I listen to and think about music every day. I don’t write that often, because I don’t want it to be a chore.  I want to want to do it.  I play and sing on other people’s songs occasionally, when asked.  That can be fun because I can just react and jump on that train that’s already in motion.  It may be the producer in me, but I feel at ease when I can listen to other people’s music and get ideas to embellish and react to it.

How do you keep busy?

I’m a geek, so I love to work on things and build things.  I did electronic repair work on amps and things for many years and I love doing remodeling on our house.  My wife and I have been working on it for over 20 years now and we’re running out of projects!  But there is still nothing that thrills me more than writing and recording a new song.

Any plans in the works on a new album?

New music, yes!  Album?  Do they exist anymore?  Although we’ve always been album oriented, as a band, everyone is a bit stymied about what the best format is in today’s musical climate.  CD?  Vinyl LP?  EP?  Digital download?  Single?  Full album? No one really knows the answer because there are examples of each of those options being successful and also being a failure.  I recently talked to a longtime record promo guy that worked for decades with major labels.  I asked him what he would do, if he had a full album recorded and ready for release?  He said, “Cut it up into 6 singles”.  We’ll see what the future holds.

Thanks a bunch Jeff and continued good fortune in all you do.

Thank-you, Greg, it’s been my pleasure!

Gavin Sutherland Interview

Who remembers the hit songs “Arms of Mary” and “You Got Me Anyway”?  Does the band Sutherland Brothers & Quiver ring a bell?  During their recording career they may not have been a household name, but the Scottish band has most definitely left an indelible mark in pop rock’s colorful history. Gavin Sutherland, along with his brother Iain (d. 2019) were the principles, and recorded as both Sutherland Brothers and Sutherland Brothers & Quiver.  After the breakup of the band Gavin has continued recording several solo albums and he has agreed to take some time out of his schedule to chat with me.

First off, thank you Gavin for agreeing to this interview.  How are you?  What kind of effect has the COVID-19 pandemic had on you?

I’m doing fine, thanks Greg. The covid thing hasn’t really had much of an effect on me. I live in a quiet village on the coast, in a warm and friendly community, where not much happens anyway. But I am of course concerned for my family and friends elsewhere. I know it’s been a difficult time for a lot of folks, but I’m OK. Still sane, I think!

Let’s go back to your earliest memories.  What was life like growing up in Aberdeenshire?  I would have guessed the city was a suburb of Aberdeen, but that’s not the case is it?

I was born and spent the first six years of my life in Peterhead, a fishing town on the east coast. My early childhood memories are all good. As kids my brother and I and our little gang of friends enjoyed a lot of freedom to roam around the place. The beach was close at hand and we’d spend a lot of time there, messing around on the rocks, looking for crabs and all that or sometimes fishing in the harbour with our home-made lines. All the lads had a fishing line.  Football on the links was another favourite pastime, climbing trees was another. There were two cinemas in town, always jam packed for Saturday morning matinees. The Lone Ranger, Batman, The Cisco Kid. Most of what we saw came over from the States.

What did your parents do for a living?

My dad was a civil servant, worked for the government at the local employment office. Mum worked in an office for a while too. Not sure where exactly. For generations past most of my family had been involved in the fishing industry either as fishermen or in the land based trades that supported the fishing. There were several herring curing yards down around the harbour. My grandfather was a cooper, making barrels for the herring exporters. In his later life he worked as a fish buyer for one of the bigger curing yards.

Were either of your parents musicians? 

Dad was a great musician. He played violin and accordion in his part time dance band, ‘The Melody Makers’. They played the weekend dances in the big hotels in the town and surrounding villages. Music was a big thing our house. Dad had a great collection of jazz and swing records, Benny Goodman,  Glen Miller, all that stuff. His hero was Stephane Grappelli. The Hot Club, with Django, were regular favourites on the big gramophone in the living room. Dad’s pride and joy.  I remember Krupa’s drums sounded great on that thing. I’ve always loved the drums and drummers.

Did you have any musical training as a youth?

No, none at all, but there was always talk of music in the house and dad’s band mates would meet in our kitchen to discuss arrangements and all that, so music was a very normal part of life for Iain and me. I thought at the time every household must be like that, but of course that wasn’t the case. Yeah, Iain and I were very lucky to have all that around us as kids.

I got my first guitar for my tenth birthday. Guitar music was the new thing and like so many kids at that time I wanted to play guitar.  It was a really dodgy acoustic but I just loved it. With it came a copy of Burt Weedon’s ‘Play In a Day’, the novice’s introduction to the instrument. I know a lot of guitar players who started with that book, ‘Burt’s Bible’. I’ve still got mine. ‘Play In A Day’ ? Not sure about that! I spent ten years learning to play and the rest of my life learning what not to play.

Talk about your education. 

I started school in Peterhead but only did a year there. When my family moved to Midland England with my Dad’s work my life changed quite dramatically. No more harbour, no more beach, no more sea. All the things that I thought was the real world. Life was tough for a while, but I was lucky to have a big brother to keep an eye on me and make sure I was OK. I spoke with a strong north Scots dialect and nobody understood me, and I still remember when mum, god bless her, sent me to my first school Christmas party in the kilt. In the eyes of my classmates, not only did I make strange noises when I spoke but sometimes wore a skirt. Perfect! But I settled quickly, kids do, and I made a lot of good friends.

Senior school would have been unbearable without my pals.  We laughed our way through all the crap and some lifelong friends were made. 

My musical school memories come down to the school’s annual Gilbert and Sullivan operatic productions of ‘The Pirates of the Penzance’ and ‘The Mikado’. I was never chosen to sing in those things. When our music ‘teacher’ came around the class as we sang boring, dodgy songs like Schubert’s ‘The Trout’, marking the chosen for the choir with a chalk cross on their desk, I whispered so I wouldn’t get picked.  It meant nothing to me. “Three Little Maids From School Are We” ? No, I don’t think so. Sounded a bit dodgy, even then. I couldn’t wait to get home and listen to my Beatles and Stones records. 

How did you become interested in music?  Can you recall one of the first 45’s or LP’s you bought?

A pal of mine had an older brother who had a little Dansette record player. We used to sit in his bedroom and listen to his records. That’s when I found Eddie Cochran, Buddy Holly and the early rock ‘n’ rollers who changed my life. The Shadows were another favourite of mine. When Cliff and The Shadows ever came on television my attention was always drawn to Hank Marvin, not the front man. The first thing I taught myself to play was a Shadows tune, ‘FBI’. Of course I didn’t know then that one day, many years later, I would meet him and enjoy a chat with him in a dressing room at one of their nightclub gigs. That came about because we knew his old buddy, Bruce Welch. Bruce produced our last SBQ album ‘Down To Earth’. We recorded it at Abbey Road. I have memories of sitting shoulder to shoulder with Bruce as we mixed tracks on the big board there in studio one. Those were the days of ‘all hands on desk’ when everybody had a wee job at the mixer as we finished off the tracks. Pull the vocals in the middle bit, push the last lick in the guitar solo, all that kind of thing. I well remember the day Bruce turned up with a guitar case and put it down on the floor of the control room. When he opened  it all present were amazed. It was Hank’s first Strat, the first one ever to come to the UK, the one Cliff had bought for him because he was looking for that bright, clean Buddy Holly sound. We all took it in turn to have a quick go on it. Of course I played ‘FBI’. Yeah, I never thought I’d get a chance to play the first tune I’d ever learned on the actual guitar Hank recorded it with. A truly magical moment for me.

The first record I bought was an EP by a guy called Frank Ifield, an Anglo-Australian who I later found out was the first guy in the UK to sell a million records. My favourite of the four songs  was a tune called ‘Lovesick Blues’. Somebody told me the best version of that one was by a country and western singer called Hank Williams. That was my introduction to the man himself, Hiram ‘Hank’ Williams, a song writing giant and undisputed master of the three chord trick.

What kind of influence did your older brother Iain have in your life, both personally and musically?

I followed in Iain’s footsteps every step of the way. I couldn’t match him academically, he had a knack of cruising through school exams, even when his school band were gigging in the local village halls while their classmates were buried in books, but I was a better football player than him, and that meant a lot to me as a kid.  He was always there for me and his approach to life influenced me a great deal. He was strong minded, warm hearted and absolutely  fearless. I’d like to think some of that rubbed off on me, but I’m not sure about that. His creative talents were extraordinary, but he was my brother, I’d grown up with him so of course I took all that for granted. As kids we found singing in harmony was really easy. We didn’t have to work on that at all, somehow it was just there. The notes, the phrasing, the whole thing. When we first got guitars we’d sing a lot together, Beatle songs and of course the Phil and Don thing was big with us, for obvious reasons.

Who were you earliest influences?

I remember we used to listen to the top twenty ‘hit parade’ on Sunday nights on our little transistor radio.  The signal from Radio Luxembourg came and went but it always sounded just great to me. ‘Fabulous 208’ was a big deal for us and so many like us. Our window to the world of music we loved. That’s where we found Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee and all that early rock stuff.  I’ll never forget the night I was tuned in to Luxembourg and heard this rough harmonica lick followed by a two part harmony that sounded just wonderful. When the record finished  the DJ told us that was “Love Me Do”, the new single from a group from Liverpool called ‘The Beatles’.  I didn’t realise at the time just how much that few minutes of music was about to change my life.

I was twelve years old in the summer of ’64 when we went for a family holiday on the Isle-of-Man. One evening as we strolled along the Douglas prom we saw a poster saying there would be a ‘Beat Group Competition’ in the grounds of one of the big hotels that night, featuring five bands from Liverpool. Of course we went along to see it, and it was just magical! I don’t know who we saw that night but they all sounded just fantastic to me, all doing the same stuff, Chuck Berry tunes and beat group standards  like Walking The Dog, Hog For You Baby and Hi Heeled Sneakers. A couple of nights later ‘A Hard Days Night’ was released and Iain and I went to see it at the local flix. Wow! Well, that was just it, we came out of the cinema that night knowing exactly what we wanted to do for a living. I think everybody was into the Beatles back then. It was much, much more than music, it was a new way of life for me, all my pals, and thousands like us, with the fab four fronting the whole thing.

Your first band was A New Generation.  You released a trio of singles in 1968. 

Yeah, ‘A New Generation’. We all hated the name but some agent guy in London, for no known reason, was telling everybody that’s what we were called so we got lumbered with it.  We had a few singles released and did quite a few radio shows for the BBC, recorded at their big sound studio complex at Maida Vale.  It was after we’d done one of those sessions and returned to the cheapest hotel in town, that we got a message from our manager. “Be at Hampstead Heath tube station at six a.m. Wear something warm !” That was it. Next morning, bright and early, we  took the tube up there and were met by a guy form some dodgy publicity agency. We walked with him up onto the Heath, still not sure what was going on. Eventually we saw in the distance a lorry and a few people spraying the grass with silver car paint. When the lorry moved away there it was. Oh no! A wooden space ship!! Oh no, WTF was going on!  Being green and keen we followed our instructions and got into the thing. “Just wait in there and keep quiet!”

So there we were, sat on a plastic sheet, covered in baby frogs. The situation was ridiculous.  After an hour or so there was a bang on the space ship door. “Oi, have you got a permit for this?”. It was one of the park wardens. He asked again an we stayed silent.  He went away and soon after that the police arrived and the plan to make the headlines with an ‘Alien Landing on Hampstead Heath’ was scuppered! They were not amused. “Get out of there right now or you’re gonna get done!” We opened the door and stepped out. “Right, fuck off and take all the crap with you before we do you for wasting  police time.” Our publicity guru turned up and we had to carry “all the crap” back to the car park. About half a mile. We were totally knackered and had achieved absolutely nothing. Those were the days!

Then you were in a group called Baby, releasing a one-off single in ’69.  Any memories there?

No, not really. We used that name for a few months and then the band split up. Chris the keyboard player went off to music college to later become a teacher. John the drummer joined another band and went off to Germany to do the Star Club thing. 

Iain and I came up with a cunning plan. We wanted to talk to someone we respected and knew all about the music business. Paul McCartney was our first choice so we set about finding a way to get to see him. We contacted Apple and were told he was unavailable (surprise) and that he was spending some time on his farm on the Mull he would later make famous. OK, now we knew where he was and we were on the case, fueled by the madness of fearless, naive youth.

The more people laughed at the idea the more determined we got. We had no time to waste and somehow managed to persuade dad, against his better judgment, to give us a lift to Keele Services on the M6 where we began our epic hitch-hike journey north. It took about twenty four hours, but we did eventually arrive in Campbeltown  in Paul’s beloved Kintyre.  After a night in a B and B we went down to the police station. We told them we were from Apple records and had some tapes to deliver to Mr Mc. We got a wry smile as the bobby on duty gave us directions. We were closing in on the target. So off we went on a six mile walk out of town. The Gods were on our side as we accidentally missed the track that would have taken us through the farm where the farmer acted as a sort of security guy and took the next turn, a track that eventually faded out to nothing, but we kept going. When we reached the brow of the hill, there it was, the little white buildings  with red roofs, just like we’d seen in some music mags. So on we trod. Then in the distance a couple of figures appeared, with a big fluffy sheep dog. I thought “That must be Martha. Oh dear! With Mr and Mrs Mc.” And so it was, we’d achieved our goal. Paul wasn’t, understandably, too pleased to see us but once he realised we were there with a purpose and not for an autograph or an old school selfie, I think he liked our unorthodox approach and we chatted about all sorts of things. He told us about the time he and John bought black envelopes and silver nail varnish to address letters to agents when they were looking for gigs. “Any response” was the question. “Fuck all” was the answer. I remember the master’s words of wisdom. “It’s all out there, if you want it bad enough, just go and get it.” With that we parted company and headed for home. Mission accomplished. Sorry, Paul, please forgive the intrusion, it just had to be done.

Your first incarnation as “Sutherland Brothers” was circa 1971.  Two albums were released in 1972.  My favorite of the two is “Lifeboat”, especially the ’73 version including Quiver with the added track “Real Love”.    

After our chat with Sir Paul, Iain and I were more determined than ever to give the music bizz a proper go. We knew we’d have to move down to London. Everything was there, record companies, studios, publishers, yeah, everything, with very little happening elsewhere at that time. But we were skint, so to save up some money we took factory jobs. Iain worked on a pot bank, dragging trollies of clay around all day and I got a job in a factory on a production line, putting wiring boxes into night-storage heaters.  When we’d saved up enough we made the move and took up residence in West Kensington’s bedsit land.  We spent all our time writing songs and singing them to each other. Our pal, Wayne Bardell, who we’d met in an earlier brush with ‘Tin Pan Alley’ and would later manage us, was busy trying to get us a record deal. It took some time but eventually Muff Winwood at Island Records got to hear our stuff and liked what he heard. We’d got a pretty cool harmony voice thing going on, and, yeah, I think he liked that. He gave us some recording audition time at Island’s HQ in Basing Street, then the coolest studio on the planet, with my dear friend Digby Smith at the audio helm.  (Digby and I worked together on a couple of very recent recording projects, but that’s another story.)  While Iain and I were in the studio, giving it all we’d got, unknown to us, Chris Blackwell, who owned and ran the label, popped into the control room, liked what he heard and gave the thumbs up to a three album deal. We’d done it! The feeling was way beyond wonderful, it was what we’d been aiming for, for a long time, and we celebrated around the corner in ‘Mike’s Caf’ with egg, beans and chips and pints of tea.

So we got studio time, with Muff producing and Digs at the desk. Our old pal Neil ‘Fred’ Hopwood came in on drums and we auditioned for a bass player in a sweaty, pokey little room in Shepheards Bush. Kim Ludman got the job. ‘The Sutherland Brothers Band’ was born, now all we had to do was make a record. It was a great experience working with those people and in our three or four weeks on that album we learned so much about how to turn sketched ideas into decent records. Muff’s experience and willingness to share his knowledge was invaluable and I will remain forever grateful. Never a dull moment, and a lot of good laughs to help it all rock ‘n’ roll along. Yeah, everybody in that building knew exactly what they were doing. Good times. Barney Bubbles did the sleeve for that one. Having our portraits painted by him was a real blast. Great guy!

So ‘The Sutherland Brothers Band’ finished the album and took to the road, opening for other bands on the label who were a rung or several further up the ladder.  ‘Mott The Hoople’ and ‘Free’ come to mind. We played all over the UK and lots of gigs in mainland Europe

Some strange things happened  at that time. Not least my near-death experience when I got a massive electric shock on stage at Birmingham City Hall. Yeah that was a close one. Blue light ambulance job , burns on my hands and feet, but after a couple of nights in hospital I was allowed home. I was in pretty bad shape for a while and the band came off the road. Iain didn’t want to do stuff without me around. I think that kind of knocked the stuffing out of the band and after a few shows we split up. The last thing we did was a week in the strangest place I’d ever played, ‘The Zoom Club’ in Freiburg. 

After a long drive south we arrived at the place. We were booked for a week, sharing the bill with Gary Moore and his band. We met the manager. “OK, when do you want us to start?” “Hey, man, when it feels right.” “Oh, right. When do we finish?” “Hey, when it feels right!” We knew then the week ahead was going to be ‘different’.   Just then Gary wandered in. He’d started the night before. “This is the weirdest place on the planet.  I won’t spoil it, but you’re in for a time! “ He told us the bands didn’t start till midnight so we headed back to the hotel to get some sleep. We got back to the club late that evening and there were about ten people in there, a liquid light show on back wall and the music was loud. By midnight the place was packed. There was a US army base near the town and this was where the off-duty GIs came to ‘unwind’. The local heads hung out there too, it was pretty chaotic. By the time we went on there was a thick blue fog in the room and it smelt sweet. Everybody was getting smashed, sitting or lying on the floor, but strangest of all, facing the back wall, away from the stage. We kicked off and half way through the first number bits from old black and white movies appeared on the wall. Laurel and Hardy, W C Fields and then a bi-plane dog fight with deafening machine gun noises. Wow! Gary was right, this place was seriously strange! After a couple of nights we got used to it all but it remains unforgettable. When we got back to London we played the Marquee, with everybody looking at the band. That felt quite uncomfortable at first, but we got used to it!

That band just ran out of gas and before our second album was due it was back to just the two of us. Dave Mattacks was booked in to bash the tubs. A great player in the engine room and we could build a band up from there. I remember the night we recorded ‘Real Love’. It was about giving the players room to play. Steve Winwood came in to play piano, Rabbit Bundrick did his Hammond thing and the tune just took off. A great thing to be a part of and a jolly good night was had by all. The album, clearly by the title, had a nautical root that took Iain and I back to our seaboard homeland. Songs like ‘Sailing’ and ‘Lifeboat’ came from the places we’d known as kids, our family ties to the sea and the tunes we’d sang in the kirk as kids. The sea and it’s unpredictable  behavior was a useful metaphor for life in general, you know, the storms, the calms, waves rolling, tides turning and all that. Without thinking about it we looked back to our roots quite a lot and on reflection maybe that made our approach a wee bit different to that of those around us. The sound of the sea never leaves you. What’s the city equivalent? Car engines? Taxi horns? No thanks. I did ten years in London. I had some great times, but ten years was enough for me. I remember being stuck in a traffic jam at the Hammersmith roundabout and thinking “That’s it, I’ve had enough, I’m getting out of here.”

So I made a move, back up north to a farm house I shared with Alex, my lovely wife at that time, and Iain and Pat, his life long Mrs. That’s where we’d often enjoy the company of friends, get loaded on what ever was around, listen to music and watch the sun go down. That’s where Iain saw the lights in the valley and felt the wind blow up the ally and changed the words of a song he’d written years before to a tale about a lass called Mary. 

How had you heard about Quiver?  Is there a story as to how they came up with that name?  As it’s told Muff Winwood was responsible for uniting you and your brother with Quiver, is that right?

At the time of the Lifeboat release Iain and I were gigging around with a couple of acoustic guitars. We were ok with that for a while but always felt more at home in a band. Our manager, Wayne, got word that Quiver were looking for a singer songwriter and suggested we go and see them. The guy in the band who I think wrote a lot of their stuff, Cal Batchelor, had plans to head home to Canada. When we heard Quiver were playing a north London pub one night we went along to see them. They sounded great. After the set we met up with the lads for a pint and a chat. We got on really well and decided to get some studio time and see how working together might pan out. There was no real plan at that time so both us and Quiver wanted to keep our identity. We got a day booked in Basing street studios and recorded a couple of tunes, Iain’s ‘You Got Me Anyway’ and the Buddy Holly classic ‘Not Fade Away’. We all knew that one.  At the top of the session notes, in the ‘artist’ box, Digby had written ‘The Sutherland Brothers and Quiver’. We didn’t know then how things would work out but we were all keen to give something a go so a few days later we all met up for a jam around with some of our tunes at Quiver’s HQ in Elgin Avenue. Pete Wood, a great keyboard player, lived in the ground floor flat and came upstairs to join the fun. We all had a good time and decide to get a gig organized. Iain and I had a night booked at The Marquee Club, we played there quite a lot, and that was where the Quiver lads joined us for the first time.  We did a few tunes, just the two of us, and then on came the boys. The sound was big and we  knew there was something interesting going on. 

‘You Got Me Anyway’, made the charts in the States and at the same time we were invited by Elton John to open for him on his ‘Yellow Brick Road’ tour. That was our first time in the USA and we had a ball. Everywhere we went the “Yellow Brick Road Show” was big news. The crowds were massive and the media attention was pretty intense. We played all those cities we knew from school geography class and Chuck Berry records, from Madison Square to the Hollywood Bowl and everywhere in-between.  Yeah, Elton was good to us, gave us a lift on his plane a few times. Yeah, cool guy. Great touring with him and his band.

You must have liked what you heard in Tim Renwick’s guitar playing.  What did he bring to the SB&Q overall sound?

Yeah, Tim is a very special musician, and a lovely guy. We’re still good friends and keep in touch with each other, and Willie, my old tour room mate, of course too. When Tim got going live he played some beautiful stuff. Standing between his guitar and Iain’s voice, in front of Willie’s kit was, for me, the safest place in the world. Working with those guys really was an absolute pleasure. Pete later moved on and we parted company with Bruce. I moved on to bass, and there we were, with an ‘old school’ beat group line up. Vocals, lead guitar, rhythm guitar, bass and drums. We worked really well together and there was always loads of laughter, a comprehensive selection of refreshments , and a lot of love in the room.

The sound of SB&Q has been described as folk/pop rock.  It may be me but I don’t hear much of a “folk” sound.  Of course I’m not real big on labels anyway.  I will ask you this, back in the day did some fans think you were American?  Was there any intention on sounding “American”, especially with some of the vocal intonations and instrumentation?  Or was it just the sound that you guys created and critics and fans will inevitably compare one band’s sound to others?

Hang on a minute. You guys got it from us! Our celtic song tradition and fiddle tunes travelled across the water with our emigrants, and gently morphed into country songs and blue grass.  You guys disguised it, brought in the Afro groove, called it rock and roll and sent it back over to us. And, of course, we loved it! But we were moving on too at that time. It’s a big wide world and we’re all a part of it. Music is the global language, with no border lines out there to spoil the fun. Let’s just keep it like that.

I must say SB&Q were a very tight sounding outfit.  I won’t go into analyzing each album, but I’ll give you some of my favorite tracks and you can comment if you like.  I like the slower tempo and soulfulness of “Love on The Side”.  “High Nights” is a really nice instrumental.  Can you tell I like slower material?  Of course I already mentioned “Real Love”.  I like the almost “reggae/ska” sound of “Dr. Dancer”.  But probably my all time favorite track is “Moonlight Lady”.  It’s one of those goose-bump inducing songs.  

Moonlight Lady

Rod Stewart had a hit with ‘Sailing’ and that opened a lot of doors for us. We opened for the Faces on a few gigs. Great band and a really nice bunch of blokes. Soon after that we had a hit in the UK and all over Europe with ‘Arms of Mary’. That song was later covered by The Everly Brothers, a bit of a mind blower for both Iain and I as we used to work out their harmonies and sing some of their numbers when we were kids. To know they’d done the same thing with the harmony lines on our record was something special. A thing that stands out in my memory of that time was when ‘Mary’ was number one in the South African ‘white chart’, yeah, back in the days of apartheid when black and white folks couldn’t even share a music chart, (hard to believe, but true) the B side down there was a song called ‘Something’s Burning’. It was picked up by the black stations and went on to reach number one in the black chart. We were all very proud of that, it was like we’d accidentally put one over the system.  A one-off as far as I know.

The ska beat flavour on Dr. Dancer was probably a nod back in the direction of Island records and the label’s roots in the Caribbean Sea.  I loved ska, and then came reggae. I was in the office one day when one of the agency guys told me there was a reggae band playing the Speakeasy Club that night. They’d just signed to the label so I went along to check them out. On the poster on the door it said ‘Tonight, Reggae From Jamaica with ‘The Wailers’. Man, Bob and the band were just brilliant. There wasn’t much of a crowd there that night but it was clear to see I was witnessing something very special. I had a quick chat with Bob after the show, told him how much I’d enjoyed the band, their music and general approach to the whole thing. A lovely guy and obviously destined for stardom. You mentioned ‘Moonlight Lady’, yeah Iain wrote some beautiful songs. John Travolta covered that one. Pretty cool.

Were there any songs that were written that didn’t make it to vinyl?

Yeah, there must have been quite a few. I was writing but nothing like as much as Iain. Songs were just pouring out of him at that time.  But nothing really comes to mind. It was a long time ago and I struggle hard enough to remember what we did, never mind what we didn’t do! 

Who was your favorite producer to work with?

Now, that’s not easy to answer. I learned a lot from all those guys. Muff Winwood has to be top of my list. He gave us our first proper record deal and taught us so much about how to turn songs into records. Working with Ron and Howie Albert was a blast, at CBS studio in London with engineer Steve Lavine in the hot summer of 1976 was really cool. We went on to work with them at ‘Criteria’ in Miami. They took us to a ‘Surf n Turf’ place where I ate the best onion rings in the world.  Then there was Bruce Welch, one of my ‘Shadows’ heroes. He knew what records should sound like, but, for me, it was more about the chat, the little anecdotes about his early days with Cliff and the Shadows. Working in that Abbey Road building , knowing what had gone on before, was something else. Then came Glenn Spreen, out in LA., a guy who had done the string arrangements for some of the later Elvis hits.  A seriously laid back guy who at first we found difficult to read but soon became a good friend with. One of his pals was Billy Hayes of ‘Midnight Express’ fame. Billy came in to the studio one night, took off his coat and threw it onto the loaded tape machine. After all he’d been through he clearly didn’t care much about that kind of thing. We recorded that album with a fine bunch of players Glenn had put together and then went on to mix it in the CBS studio in Paris.  That was a strange place. An old, beautifully preserved music hall theater at Place de la Bastille with the studio set up in what would have been the back stage dressing room area. The tape op, a local guy, introduced us to the cafe next door where we spent some long, happy evenings. It was a little family run place. No menu, they just put on the table some food they thought we would like to eat. Yeah, loved those people and their cooking, and the house wine was wonderful.  Maybe it’s not so much about the studios and producers and more about the food in the local cafes and the chat? Before we’d even attempt a late night vocal session with Glenn in LA,  Iain and I would fuel up at our favourite Mexican place with some spicy food and a few tequilas. We knew we might be in for a long hard night of double tracked three or four part oos  or something. No cut n paste back then. We had to be prepared.

Talk about your songwriting process, both past and present, i.e. inspiration, etc.  Do you typically write the lyrics first and then the music, or vice versa? 

My approach to song writing has changed over the years. When I first started recording the songs had to be ‘studio ready’, OK, you could fine tune intros and things when you got in there with the guys , but the general shape had to be there. Words, middle eight, or whatever might be required. It’s very different now, well for me anyway. Now I can pick up a guitar, get a bit of a groove on and moan and mumble into my mobile phone. A few words might appear from nowhere that start up a lyrical process. I often don’t find out what I’m writing about until the song’s just about finished.  Sometimes I never find out or maybe years later I somehow realise where it all came from. It’s not an exact science with me, it’s more of an organic process. Anything can trigger an idea, something somebody says in the pub, a line in a book or a movie, something you see as you walk down the street, something on the news. Anything that catches your attention. Sometimes, if you’re lucky, tunes and lyrics can just arrive somehow, from a place unknown.

Do you enjoy the creative control in writing and recording your own albums or do you miss the camaraderie of a band effort?

I enjoyed working with guys, the social interaction was as important to me as the music we made. It was all one thing , but I don’t miss the touring. I’m quite happy working on tunes on my own and then bringing in a few friends to play their part.  Input from other players makes the whole thing much more interesting.  The internet has been a god send from that point of view. I work with people I know will put good stuff on the record, people I don’t have to discuss things much with, just let them get on with it. It’s not about flash playing, it’s about getting things to feel good.

Gavin, you’ve released several solo albums with A Traveller’s Tales (2019) and The Wishing Tree (2021) being the most recent. What was your inspiration for A Traveller’s Tales? 

I write songs habitually, maybe it’s an addiction, so I’ve usually got something on the go. Something to get me up in the morning with a sense of purpose. When I’d got a few tunes ready to record a couple of years ago, though I hadn’t planned it, it was clear I’d been writing reflective lyrics based loosely on my experiences through the years.  You, know, ‘the journey’.  I felt the music and the ideas were pushing me in a certain direction so I just went along with it.

Who were the musicians you played with on this album?

Joining me on this one, all hooked up through the net, were a couple of folks I hadn’t had the pleasure of working with before, singer songwriter Heidi Browne on fiddle and fellow clansman Dave Sutherland on double bass. My old pals Dave McGarry and Terry Butters took turns at the piano, Nick Zala played pedal steel guitar, Sam Lumsden played drums and Steve Watts added some synthesizer colour here and there. Nancy K Dillon, who I’d done songs with before, sings a duet with me from her home in Seattle and there are backing vocals from Heidi Browne, Debi Doss, Claire Kennedy and Gillie Nicholls. A lovely bunch of people.  

I hope you don’t mind me comparing a lot of the material to Stealers Wheel? 

No I don’t mind at all. Gerry Rafferty is a great writer. We’re both Scots and probably grew up listening to the same stuff, so the over all approach to melody lines and maybe subjects too are bound to cross over in places. The ‘folkie’ influences show through in a lot of his stuff, and mine too. Yeah, I’ll take that as a compliment.  Bless him!

On listening to the songs, I particular enjoyed “Bright Like the Sun” and “The Master’s Voice”, especially the steel guitar. 

I was chatting with a pal who suggested a bit of pedal steel guitar on a tune or two would sound cool and add a bit more of a country flavour to the album. I wasn’t sure if that was really where I wanted to go but thought I’d check it out so I had a google around to see if there might be somebody out there who could do the job and handle all the internet malarkey. I found Nick Zala. When I read the notes I saw he’d done some stuff for my old pal and management stablemate, Frankie Miller.  That was good enough for me so I emailed him and told him what I had in mind. The next move was to send him a backing track to work on and a few days later he sent back his pedal steel track. It was bang on so I asked him to try a couple more tunes. A lovely player who really got what the songs were about. Good guy. There’s some ambient synth on ‘The Sun’ track too. Played by my old friend Steve Watts, better known for his analogue synth work with the ‘heavy rock’ band ‘Demon’. Steve did it for a bottle of absinthe. Hey, it’s pricey stuff! A lot of my pals will do anything for a drink.

I think “Picture on the Wall” could be a single. I like the harmonica, tempo and rhythm of the track. 

Yeah that was a strange one to work on. I had lots of little bits of the song flying around in my head but It took a while before I found a way to glue them all together. Sometimes a lot of time and effort can go into making something  sound spontaneous and effortless. Other tunes just seem to fall out of your head.  That doesn’t happen a lot, but it’s great when it does.

My favorite line comes from “In The Eye of the Storm”. “We’re all in the same boat in the eye of the storm”. 

Maybe that’s just how I see the big picture these days, but I guess it’s always been like that. Some in the posh cabins and some below decks, but all in the same boat. A quick change of wind direction and anything could happen.

More people in the world need to hear the message of “Voice of Reason”. 

That would be wonderful, but I’m not sure it will ever happen. There’s always some nasty bastard lurking in the background, ready to pounce on the prey if they see a sign of weakness.

Lastly, who are the background singers on “Wheels Are Rolling”? 

I was thinking a gospel style vocal line or two would suit the song and a friend told me he knew a lass who worked as a hair dresser in a town about ten miles away. I got a hold of her number and asked her over to have a go at the parts. Claire Kennedy arrived at my door, a lovely young woman with a friendly smile, we had a cup of tea and a chat and then went over the song. She put on the headphones and I gave her the thumbs up. She started singing and I was blown away. Man, she was good! Handled it like a real pro. That doesn’t happen every day.  She sang both parts with natural flare.  I’m not sure she realises just how good she is. 

Now The Wishing Tree was recorded during 2020 amidst the pandemic and social distancing. Talk a little about the band members and the recording process. It must have been a bit of a challenge? 

Yes, I was having a bit of a tough time when I started work on that record. I’d just spent a couple of months down in England, dealing as best I could with my brother’s departure followed by a very strange Christmas with the family. Needless to say, it was a real struggle for us all to find some comfort and joy. Anyway, I came home mid January, just before the whole covid thing kicked off. Could things get worse?  I knew I’d have to get stuck into something or I might just lose my mind. So I started twanging around on my guitar and sketching out a few new tune ideas. 

I decided to give Dave Sutherland and Sam Lumsden a call to see if they fancied joining in. Dave’s double bass and Sam’s drums had featured on my last two albums so I knew all that would work out fine. The ball was rolling and we started swapping music files back and forth over the net and letting the whole thing develop as we went along. We didn’t know where it was going, but it felt good. I wanted my old pal Digby to master the songs, and as we discussed matters he suggested I send him the individual tracks (‘stems’ in digi-speak, apparently) down to his studio in Torquay to mix. Great! Game on, and of course really good to have ‘golden ears’ on the case. 

As I was working on the title song it crossed my mind that the intro melody line might sound good on a cello, but as I didn’t know anyone who could deal with that and all the web tech involved, the idea went no further. A few days later, and quite out of the blue, I had a message on my fb music page from Irmi Wolvin, a cellist in Vienna who had been checking out some old Suth’s stuff and said if I ever wanted a cello on any of my songs she’d be up for it. We messaged each other and as we got to know more about each other I found that not only was she a great musician but also a lovely, energetic and enthusiastic person who I knew would fit into our band of locked-down isolatoes really well. Her cello sounded so good on the first tune she played on I decided it would be great to have her on all of the songs we were working with. Irmi was enjoying making music with us and her cello put a new colour in the mix. It gave the band a sort of fresh identity and it’s always good when the Muses step in and lend a hand. I guess some things are meant to be.

The mandolin and cello have always been two of my favorite instruments. I like how they are utilized.

There are a few electric guitar licks on there, but it’s fundamentally an acoustic record. There’s a lot of wood involved and tree based instruments always sound good together. 

In “Look to the Children” explain the meaning of the line “You roll it to me, I roll it back to you”. 

Everybody rocks. It’s always about the rock. but let’s not forget the roll . It’s very important.  When that beautiful music found its way over here in the late 60s from a ‘Big Pink’ house in West Saugerties, it had a big influence on how so many of us would go on to make music. It was like ‘The Band’ had just invented  ‘roll ‘n’ roll’. Yeah, let’s  let the whole thing  roll back and forth. Feels good to me.

Had you considered “Isolation Days” as the title of this collection? Nice song. I like the background harmony vocals. 

It was on the cards as a title but I had a sketch of a scotch pine tree on the wall, a sketch I’d done in the middle of a field  a few years ago, on a pilgrimage to county Sutherland, the place where my family roots lie. The symmetry  of the old tree’s form, out there in the middle of nowhere, caught my eye. I had to sketch it. As night fell the stars appeared. I could have put them in there, but thought no, I’ll leave that to Vincent, he’s really good at that kind of thing.

I like the feel of “Watching Clouds”, especially the spoken word vocals. Who is the female speaking? 

That’s Irmi, the cellist. She put a wee video together for it too. A clever lass and always easy to work with. Her English is really great, but can be amusing sometimes. She once sent me a cello line and told me if I liked it she would do it again and ‘perfectionise’ it. That, of course, became a part of the band’s vocabulary. How cool would it be if Pro Tools and the like  had a ‘Perfectionise’ button.  

I’d never tried the spoken thing before, but I had worked with John Mackie, a poet friend of mine . He invited me to play at a couple of his gigs, ad-lib stuff, as he recited some of his work, and I thought yeah, why not, let’s give it a go. A very different approach to anything I’d ever done before and I enjoyed it. Playing in old book shops, surrounded by shelves full of old books, felt good, and the poetry get-togethers were always interesting. Watching clouds is a favourite pastime of mine, and Irmi’s too, so we got the line swapping thing together and went for it.

The guitar in “The Silent Poet” is very good. 

Thank you, maybe I’m starting to get the hang of it?

The Silent Poet

Two really inspiring, uplifting songs are “Find Your Way” and “Constant Star”. What message(s) are you imparting to the listener? 

I suppose in some ways it’s like talking to my kids or grand children. The road through life can get a bit bumpy from time to time, but just hang in there, keep going. You’ll be fine! I guess when you reach a certain stage in the game reflection and contemplation come into the picture more often. Passing life’s experiences down through the generations I think is really important. My forbears taught me that.

Has anyone ever compared your voice to that of Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits? I hear it on some songs, not all. 

No, nobody’s ever said that before but yeah, maybe there is a bit of similarity there. Probably more in the way the songs are delivered. Not everybody’s got a Paul Rogers or Frankie Miller in their throat so you just have to go with what’s there. Phrasing is a really important part of it for me. The voice on a tune isn’t just a melody line, it’s part of the rhythm section too. Paul Simon is a great example of that. He sings like human bongos on some of his stuff. ‘Boy in The Bubble’, that kind of thing. Yeah, how you phrase a line is important. Dodgy phrasing can kill a decent tune.

Besides writing and recording, what else keeps you busy these days?

I sometimes get the urge to draw something, but that comes and goes. I read a lot, but usually the same books. ‘David Copperfield’ and ‘Moby Dick’ on rotation, a pattern occasionally broken with a dive into the magical world of ‘Jonathan Livingston Seagull’. I first met Jonathan at an airport, many years ago, I think it was in New Orleans, when I bought the book just for something to read on the plane. It wasn’t until we were up above the clouds and I’d read the first few pages that I realised I’d found some treasure. I was astonished to learn that Dickens and Melville were both working on those two classics at exactly the same time. I get lost in those books, they take me somewhere special. Brilliant writing.

Have you had the vaccine shot(s) yet?

I had my first one, the ‘Oxford’, a few weeks ago, still waiting for the second.  I know a few folk who had a rough time for a day or so after the shot but I got lucky. Zero side effects, not even a sore arm. Absolutely nothing.  Maybe I don’t have an immune system?  Thank goodness for all those clever, dedicated people who worked and continue to work on developing those vaccines. We owe them such a lot.

Well, it’s been a real pleasure doing this little interview and I wish you the best Gavin!

Always,

Greg

Thanks, Greg. Cheers.

Welcome

Welcome to Tending the Pale Bloom.  Here’s to cultivating, nurturing and rekindling musical tastes!

Check out my recent interview with Rick Altizer.

Here’s my new interview with Bob (Elusive Butterfly) Lind posted 3/7/10.

A really interesting Q&A with Danny Mitchell of Messengers posted 5/16/10

A long time coming interview with Yves Altana posted 9/5/10

A little Q&A with ex-Still Life (“Away From This Town”) member Jon C Newby posted 10/10/10