From rural beginnings in the West Midlands in 1979, And Also the Trees have broadened the musical landscape both in the UK and internationally over the last 43 years. They are masters at creating a sonic palate of post-punk and gothic melodies imbued with lyrical poetry. Inspiration comes via a scenic countryside close to their roots and hearts. Lead singer Simon Jones along with his brother Justin on guitar have been there every inch of the way, seeing several lineup changes over the years and braving the cold winds of the music industry. Over 14 studio albums, 3 live releases, some 16 singles and EP’s, not to mention compilations and video releases, the band has consistently shared their musical vision and always on their own terms. With a new album out, there is much to talk about. Joining me for this conversation is Simon Jones.
Welcome Simon.
I always like to go back to the beginning. And Also The Trees were formed in Inkberrow, Worcestershire. Is that where you were born?
We were actually based in Morton – Under – Hill – a hamlet not far from Inkberrow which had a population that fluctuated between 17 and 33. It was an old farmhouse where my family lived. Justin and I were born in Birmingham and moved to the countryside in 1970 when we were children.
From what you remember, was your childhood a fairly happy time?
Yes it was, I was bad at school but I had good parents and a good family. I had long blond hair and looked like a girl so I was teased and bullied mercilessly at school so I had to toughen up and stand my ground. I exaggerated this a bit once I reached adolescence but my childhood was generally happy.
Being 4 years Justin’s senior, was there much sibling rivalry growing up?
No, none really. We played together, invented games that were totally absorbing that involved a lot of imagination and creativity… toy soldiers, rubber monsters, cars – and we played a lot of football. When we moved to the countryside we played with the children of the farmers and farm labourers and got to know the countryside from their perspective too.
Do you recall early on music being played in the household?
Yes, I have an older brother and sister too who bought records and played them on our family ‘Gramophone’. My older brother Mark bought and played The Beatles albums as they were released so musically they were my first love. Then my sister and I went halves on 7” singles which we bought from the local chemist shop in Birmingham. The first we bought was ‘Space Oddity’ when I was nine, then ‘All Right Now’ by Free and ‘Oh Well’ by Fleetwood Mac. Lucky really to have siblings with good musical taste.
Can you remember your first album?
It was a long time before I had enough money to buy an album… and I’ve forgotten what it was… maybe something by The Who. I loved The Who. Or perhaps Futurama by Be-Bop Deluxe.
How much of a musical influence did you have on brother Justin?
I don’t know. I generally liked what my sister liked and Justin liked what we liked. He was more into pop music whereas I was very proud to tell my friends at primary school that I liked a band called Led Zeppelin knowing very well they wouldn’t have heard of them.
As a teen what bands did you like?
I was a big fan of The Who but I loved Bowie and the early Pink Floyd albums. I was into Rock and then in 1977 I got into Punk and that kind of changed everything.
What were the circumstances that prompted you to want to be a musician?
The dream was to be a footballer, preferably for Aston Villa or in a rock band. Both were equally unrealistic and unlikely until Punk Rock emerged and rock idols like John Lennon, Pete Townshend, David Bowie and Bryan Ferry were replaced by Mark Perry, Gaye Advert, Pete Shelley and Joe Strummer. And kids who weren’t trained musicians were getting up on stages and opening up. Then Justin sold his action men and bought an acoustic guitar and a Bert Weedon ‘Play in a Day’ book and strangely enough I suppose that was the start of it for us.
What was your very first band?
And Also the Trees. I have another band called November with Bernard Trontin of The Young Gods which we formed in 2004 after I’d moved to Geneva. But that is the only other band I’ve been in.
Justin took up guitar playing at an early age.
Yes, he started teaching himself when he was 14. I didn’t expect him to get this good.
Prior to forming the band that would become AATT, how long had you known Graham and Nick Havas?
Justin and Nick met at Inkberrow primary school when we moved out from Birmingham. They’re still best friends and see a lot of each other. I met Graham shortly after. He was even more out of control than I was and together we got into more trouble than we should have.
How interesting, 2 sets of brothers in one band. At the time did the thought cross your mind that blood is thicker than water?
Well, there is more than one blood type.
Who’s “Dr.J” and how was he literally “instrumental” in helping design your equipment?
He was my brother in law, a Dr. of Science, parapsychology in fact. We didn’t have the money to buy any equipment and he helped us find stuff like speakers and amp parts and bits of wood and helped us make our own gear. He helped us make a vocal PA too so we didn’t have to be reliant on a PA company or a PA being in the venue. We played in the back rooms of pubs in the midlands and the sound was probably quite bad but we didn’t care. We just wanted to play.
What was ‘The Dairy’?
It was a small out-house where butter and cheese used to be made across the yard from the farm house we lived in. There was an upstairs room that we soundproofed and used as out rehearsal room.
Justin was so young when you guys started out. How did your parents feel about this? Especially, when he was underage playing live gigs?
We were close to our parents in a very old fashioned sort of way. I think they were baffled by what we were doing. When they were growing up there was no youth culture so they had nothing to compare or relate it to. Our father had worked very hard and done very well in his work to rise up from nothing, to a point where he was able to buy an old house in the country. He wanted us to be able to do what we wanted to do. They just let us get on with things. If he heard me telling someone on the phone that I couldn’t go to the pub because I was broke he’d sometimes ask if I wanted to borrow a fiver and usually I’d politely refuse and we didn’t even consider asking for help to buy equipment. Concerning my little brother Justin playing in clubs he wasn’t old enough to get into… I don’t think they knew about that. It helped that our well educated brother in law had his eye on us.
Speaking of gigs, you have a pretty memorable experience from your 2nd show where a rather large contingent of skinheads showed up.
Yes, I wrote about this recently in my ‘notes on the formative years’ which we have on our website. It’s been interesting and enjoyable writing about that time. What you are referring to is when our original bassist, who was himself a skinhead at the time, told all his mates that he was playing a gig in our village at a young farmers do. Because of his initials being GPH and so similar to punk band GBH, the skinheads, who were generally high on testosterone levels and low on brain cells, went around saying GBH was playing in Inkberrow on Saturday night. The word got around to the Birmingham skins sparking an invasion of lads expecting to see the Oi punk band GBH. It turned into one of the more dramatic nights of our history.
So the story is The Cure were looking for an opening act for their upcoming tour. You had made a demo tape from your first live gig and sent it to the band. The Cure liked what they heard and asked you to join them on their 1981 UK tour. Any special recollections from that tour?
It was very exciting in it’s own way. It was before The Cure were very famous and before we really knew what we were doing. I was 20, Justin and Nick 17. It was a very particular moment in the history of British underground music… the venues, the equipment, the audiences… For some reason I remember waking up early one cold sunny morning and going to the Edinburgh zoo.
Were you a big fan of Robert Smith’s group at the time? What other bands were you into?
We were fans, yes, but very conscious of not being too clingy or sycophantic. They made that easy for us as they treated us as fellow musicians. We were into lots of stuff… The Banshees, Joy Division, The Bunnymen, The Fall, Suicide, Tom Waits, The Doors, Hendrix. We’d started to discover lots of underground 60’s psychedelic stuff too – and our first look into the massive and baffling world of jazz. But also classical, so lots of things really.
In ’82 Graham was replaced by Steven Burrows. What led to this decision?
We had a big fight with Graham and that was the end of it. He was a bit messed up and anyway wanted commercial success right away. He wasn’t made to be a musician.
Talk about signing with Future Records.
We sent tapes all over the UK, even delivered them by hand in London. But we finally signed to a record company based in the Malvern hills which we could see on the horizon from our windows at home.
Simon, I imagine the experience of recording for the first time in a studio can be a little overwhelming. What do you recall?
Recording demos in semi-pro studios close to home made me feel like a charlatan. Recording in pro studios in London made me feel special and the quality of sound blew me away.
Your first single, 1983’s “Shantell” was actually the first AATT song I ever heard. The Cure connection continues as Lol Tolhurst produced the single.
Yes, Lol was great. Robert couldn’t do it because he was very busy and was becoming much sought after, so Lol offered to help. He did a really excellent job and was great fun to work with. I can’t imagine anyone else being better for us at the time.
I think the echoed “Shantell” throughout is what makes that song. Who’s idea was this?
Probably mine.
What was the listening public’s response to your 2nd single, “The Secret Sea”?
I don’t know – in those days we didn’t get much feedback from the public – the ‘fan’ mail or letters came later and of course there was no instant gratification (or not) internet. It wasn’t a hit anyway – wasn’t up John Peels street and not pop enough to get played anywhere else.
Mr. Tolhurst also produced your first album And Also the Trees. I still have my original vinyl copy. Where was the cover photo taken?
Nick took that photo at Start point in Devon.
2 of my favorites on this album are “Shrine” and “Twilights Pool”. What makes “Shrine” so unique is how you are reading prose/poetry rather than doing the standard verse/rhyme scheme. And I’m guessing that’s a little Lol Tolhurst wizardry with the choral backing sound?
I always liked narrations… Hawkwind, Velvet underground, The Doors, Alternative TV… And yes, Lol was very good in the mix down room.
In “Twilights Pool” lots of effects going on. The beginning sounds like a foghorn, then the echoey drums, horns, backward tape effects. Lawrence’s ideas?
Some of them were his ideas, yes. We re-issued this 1st album of ours last year as a double album with demos and singles from the time. And having not listened to the album for years I was pleasantly surprised at how good it sounded, especially the production. The songs were written when we were teenagers and I wasn’t sure how I’d feel about going back there. But it was OK.
The album must have struck a chord with John Peel who invited you to do a session in April of ’84. Did you get to meet John? Did this exposure help broaden your fan base?
No we didn’t meet him but I’m sure the session made a difference and reached a lot of people. He was important to us, he not only introduced us to a lot of music but he had a great broadcasting voice and style. He was actually more important than any one person should have been as his taste and decisions could make such a huge difference to bands. But that wasn’t all his fault.
I also still have my vinyl copy of A Room Lives in Lucy from 1985. My go to track is “Scarlet Arch”. Is that song about heroin?
No it’s not – although it could be I suppose if you wanted it to be. I never took heroin but I thought about it a lot.
From 1986’s Virus Meadow, I’ve always liked the lyrics in “Gone…Like the Swallows”. Life is so fleeting…
I am still very pleased with those words. They came from a dream.
Any fond memories of your first European tour?
Many. It was very exciting just to go abroad. In the mid 80’s there was more diversity from country to country and far fewer motorways and bypasses so you got to see and really feel the foreign-ness of each town. The really striking thing for us though was that the audiences knew our material. We’d never really experienced that before and people in general in mainland Europe seemed to have a respect for musicians and artists you don’t get in the UK unless you are famous.
On the 1987 EP Shaletown I like the general feel of the song, but especially Justin’s guitar.
Good. He had developed his own quite unique guitar sound by that point.
The following year’s House of the Heart has to be one of the more “upbeat” AATT song I’ve heard.
Yes, we always felt there needed to be a song that sounded like a single on an album back then and this was the ‘single’.
But my favorite track from The Millpond Years (1988) is the beautiful instrumental “From the Silver Frost”.
It’s not the right thing to say to the singer. You know writing all those words nearly killed me and you say the one you like the best has no vocal on it. However, I think it’s my favourite on the album too.
The album cover on 1989’s Farewell to the Shade is so iconic to me, it’s the image that comes to mind when I think of AATT. Almost like a painting. Who’s idea was the concept? Who was the photographer?
I think it was my idea. It’s taken in a room in the farmhouse where we lived, the room where I worked on the lyrics. I set up the lights and camera with Justin and we got someone, a friend or girl friend, I don’t remember, to take the pictures. Some people really didn’t like it – thought it too stylised or too obvious – but I think it’s OK. At least it’s where we lived and worked and we’re wearing clothes we wore most of the time. So it’s not THAT contrived.
Really nice rendition of Cat Stevens’ “Lady D’Arbanville”. I can’t decide which version I like better.
Thank you. I certainly prefer the original Cat Stevens version.
I also like “The Street Organ”.
There are some good pieces on that album. “Misfortunes” is almost a very good piece of music but it never quite lives up to it’s potential.
However, my most treasured AATT piece is “Belief in the Rose”. What can I say about this one that hasn’t already been said.
Really? That’s interesting. It’s funny how different people who have followed our history have different favourites. “Belief in the Rose” was a track we revived for the acoustic album. It worked well in that context.
In my opinion, the band really began hitting its stride in the late 80’s. A much more full, mature sound on these last 2 albums.
People have different favourite albums too. Some people, like Justin I think, are of the opinion that there is too much keyboard on them and they’re a bit over produced. But these things effect us all in different ways. My favourite albums are the ones since 2000.
Simon, I’m sure many, like myself, have been drawn to AATT not only by the music, but also the visual mystique of your album covers, but also your attire. I know your appearance has always been very important. Talk about the look that you and Justin have bedecked yourself in.
We were very young punk rockers and dressing that way gave you an identity – I liked that. Punk was really more about a state of mind of course, but dressing in clothes unlike normal people felt good. It made me interested in style, not so much fashion. There was a mod revival in the UK directly after the punk scene fragmented and died down and I got into that as I’d always loved the Mod style. Then I started going to jumble sales in church halls where you could find suits from the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s for next to nothing and it felt good going around in demob suits or these marvelous 60’s Italian cut suits. It was about not looking like everyone else at the time. Then I came across a frock coat and Justin and I found a shop in Evesham, a local market town, that sold antique clothes for very little money. There we’d buy these beautiful old waistcoats and white shirts and look a bit like we’d walked out of a period drama. We felt there was something a bit fake about just dressing up like that for the stage so we wore these clothes as often as we could when we went out at night, down to the pub or wherever. And it wound some people up because people don’t like it when you step out of line like that, but I didn’t care. I thought I was pretty tough at the time and anyway, people got used to us looking like that and didn’t take any notice of us after a while. It was quite an odd time for me come to think of it. I was working on a pig farm most mornings, but in the same week I’d be off playing in European cities dressed in my frock coat and riding boots and all looking like some kind of English dandy from another time. I toned things down when I felt it gave the impression that I wanted to be recognized in the street as the singer in AATT. The recognition was quite a thrill at first but then my ego calmed down and I preferred to be more anonymous.
In 1990 you toured America. Any recollections?
Yes plenty of good memories of that tour. And what stands out? Lovely people in Pittsburgh who put us on there and a great crowd there too. A back alley in Washington moving with what looked like a river of rats. Cool college radio in Boston. Our man who organized the whole thing, Norm Veenstra, big, handsome, scary looking giant of a man. Some very good shows in Chicago, Washington, and New York – where the hosts were the most condescending, arrogant people we’ve ever come across – so horrible and aggressive it was funny. Asking Norm as we drove past statues in the towns, “who’s the bad guy on the horse?” Seven people in the audience in Hoboken after an 8 hour drive in the snow and the long long drive across the big country to Chicago.
1992’s Green is the Sea is almost like a collection of dark sea shanties. “The Fruit Room” and “Jacob Fleet” are 2 of my favorites.
Strangely, I’d never actually noticed before how many nautical references there are in this collection of songs. My favourite is “Mermen of the Lea”, a gift of a song that came together out of the ether, vocally and lyrically, in about half an hour. Along with “Virus Meadow” it’s the song that takes me home most strongly, almost too strongly sometimes.
The following year’s The Klaxon is a very nice album. 4 songs in particular I return to frequently are “Sunrise”, “Wooden Leg”, “The Dutchman” and “The Flatlands”.
And this album we actually recorded by the sea in Cornwall in a bungalow overlooking a bay. The first time we recorded in a place that wasn’t a recording studio and hiring in all the equipment. It was a luxury being able to work whatever hours we wanted to and we often recorded late into the night and took time out to walk along the cliffs.
Now let’s talk about 1996’s Angelfish. Quite a departure from the up to then “AATT sound”. A concept album about Americana. Was this in a way a “getting back to roots” album or a venue for Justin to flex his “R’n’r” wings a little? I hear some film noir, jazzy, smoke-filled café riffs, but also some straight-ahead rock time signatures. Some of the music reminds me of Nick Cave and the guitar like a Link Wray/Duane Eddy cross-mix.
We had a very particular image and sound, like no one else, but by this time we felt we’d almost painted ourselves into a corner and needed to get out. As I’ve said, Justin’s guitar has always led the way with us and he decided to change his style and move away from that perception of being a romantic, pastoral English band. Of course this is what most of our admirers liked about us so leaving it behind wasn’t a wise career move. But we’d never really treated ‘And Also the Trees’ as a career – or at least I should say our priority wasn’t playing to the gallery. Anyway, Justin adopted this twangy guitar style as you accurately put it, like a Duane Eddy/Link Wray cross-mix, and I took that as my lead to take the wandering spirit of ‘And Also the Trees’ on that unlikely path into retro-Americana.
The lone surviving Havas brother Nick was replaced on drums by Paul Hill. Reason(s)?
Nick needed a career that would give more financial stability. You can dedicate your life to music for so long but there are certain points when you have to make big decisions. As non conformist outsiders we’d accepted by this point that we’d never be able to live from music and Nick had anyway drifted away from us a bit musically too so it was the right time for him to leave. He remains a very close friend to both Justin and I.
At this point you set up your own label. Talk a little about how important that was for you and AATT.
The music business was in a huge crisis so we decided the safest option was to have as much control as possible – getting the hell off a sinking ship in other words.
Silver Soul (1998) was the first release on your new label. It continues with Justin’s “gunslinger” guitar sound. The album reminds me of some of the Flaming Stars material who were recording around the same time period. For my 2 cents worth, “Highway 4287” is the best track.
Hahaha ‘gunslinger guitar sound’ – love it! So, if we were leaving a sinking ship you could say this album was us clinging onto some driftwood. It could easily have been our last album. A lot had happened in our personal lives. We were in the process of leaving our Worcestershire home. Nick had left and I was moving to Switzerland. It’s not a bad album, it’s the end of an era for us though. We survived.
Further From the Truth (2003) found AATT back in a more subdued, mellow(er) sound. “Pale Sun” is a quality tune. A point of reference for me on this album is perhaps some of the mellower Tindersticks material.
I see it as the album where we let go of a lot of things. Our minds had been cleared of all thoughts attached to the music business. We had gone almost 5 years without playing live, our lives had changed, we had moved away from Worcestershire. And we didn’t know if we actually had an audience any more. We just decided to write another album even if it was for ourselves, like for the pure love of making music. It was like starting from the beginning again in a way and it was still as tough as ever to reach a point where we were happy with what we had but we got there. It was like a new beginning.
In 2004 and 2005 you played several music festivals. How did you like that compared to playing regular concert gigs?
Back then promoters thought we weren’t really a festival band. We’d played some big festivals back in the 80’s actually and they’d gone well but now we found we had a really strong pool of songs that worked well in the festival environment. We’re never going to be a ‘throwing beer around festival band’ obviously, but then and now we certainly bring something different and I’d like to think interesting or exciting to those kind of events. We like playing anywhere. It’s one of the beauties of this band, we can play, and do play and enjoy playing in all kinds of venues. Nowhere is too small and nowhere too big.
How did you and Bernard Trontin of Swiss Industrial band The Young Gods get together for “November”?
We were introduced to each other by the owner of a small record shop in our home town Geneva. Bernard had mentioned to him that he wanted to do an album with guest vocalists writing and singing parts to a lot of instrumental pieces he’d written and mentioned my name as a vocalist he would like to ask to contribute. He didn’t know I was living in Geneva but I’d been in the record shop and the owner had recognized me – so it came about like that. We’ve done two albums together now under the name ‘November’.
For 2007’s (Listen For) The Rag and Bone Man you added a couple of new members. Introduce Ian Jenkins and Emer Brizzolara.
Steven had to leave for personal reasons – he went to live in the US, so Ian Jenkins joined us on bass. Emer had been playing with us on stage for quite a while but this was the first album she contributed to creatively.
This release seems to mark a return to the darker/gothic AATT sound. “The Beautiful Silence” is my top pick, but I also like “Domed” and “The Saracen’s Head”.
Well personally “Candace” is my favourite and one of my top 5 favourite AATT songs, but I’ve seen over the years that fans’ favourite songs from the albums is very varied – probably a good sign. There is a lot I could say about all the albums. This is a very special album for us though, it was the beginning of what one could dramatically describe as our Renaissance. We’ve never been comfortable with being classed as ‘Gothic’ but if you broaden the term to include say the works of David Lynch, the music of Nick Cave and the works of Thomas Hardy, Cormack McCarthy, for example, then sure it is quite gothic.
In 2009 you released a couple of acoustic albums. How well received were these?
They were well received. This project took us to some amazing places and generated a lot of ‘media’ interest in the band. Media now had become something entirely different to when we were going through the 80’s and 90’s. It’s no longer the closed shop it was back then and for a band like us who had so few links or contacts to the old ‘Media’ and no record co. working for us, it was a much better situation. In the UK, for example, it wasn’t all about being played by John Peel or being in the NME anymore, there were other ways people could discover bands. That’s not meant to be dismissive of Fanzines where we had some great relationships. But by the end of the 80’s Fanzines had become less vibrant too. Or maybe we were no longer on their wavelength either. But we learnt a lot about music, our music and ourselves through the acoustic project. Some people absolutely loved those albums and others were unmoved.
Hunter Not the Hunted (2012) follows in similar territory to the prior album. A trio of songs that got my attention are “The Woman on the Estuary”, “What’s Lost Finds” and “Rip Ridge”.
We were being informed by our experience with the acoustic albums here and I personally was taking influence from the writings of naturalists and consequently nature itself. If we’re mentioning specific tracks then my hand would be “Only” and “My Face is Here in the Wild Fire”.
Who did the artwork for the cover of 2016’s Born Into The Waves?
A young artist called Anouk de Groot, well she was young then. We lost touch with her unfortunately.
“Bridges” is a nice track, but the one that stays with me long after listening is “Boden”.
“Bridges” is one of my favourite AATT songs of all time and I think this is possibly our best album. It took us 4 years to write it so sweeping over it like this feels wrong – but still.
Simon, talk about the current lineup of AATT.
Justin and I are founder members. Paul Hill joined us over 20 years ago and I’d describe his as ‘maverick’ – his presence prevents us from getting too serious about things. Grant Gordon and Colin Ozanne are quite recent members – they’re great as a band, live and creatively. I honestly believe we have never been better. I said to someone the other day “I am still as into all this as I ever was, even more perhaps… it makes me wonder if there is something wrong with me”.
Ok, new album The Bone Carver. Talk details. What can we expect lyrically and aurally from this album?
This question is an interview in itself. And I’ve just done lots of them so the best would be to look on line as I can’t really repeat it all here and now. It was released in September and has had exceptionally good reviews and I’m very pleased. When it was finally finished and mastered and all I couldn’t hear it anymore and didn’t even know if it was any good, but apparently it is.
One question I forgot to ask you earlier is to list some of the authors and works that have been inspirational in your lyrics over the years.
Huxley, Hardy, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, MacCarthy, Plath, Dylan Thomas, Faulkner – in small ways I think everything I’ve ever read has influenced me.
In looking back, does it seem like 4 decades plus?
It seems like my whole life – which I suppose it is.
After the release of the new album what’s on the horizon for AATT?
We’ve been playing live in Europe and we have started on a new album. There is a lot in our diaries actually and the biggest difficulty is finding the time to do it.
Any interests outside of music?
I am a photographer… was a photographer. I still take photographs with the intension of gathering them together for exhibitions and or a book one day. And I have a passion for Aston Villa football club which is more like a vice. I like gardening and walking and food. And Trees.
Alright Simon, that about wraps it up. Thank you so much for your time and willingness to take part in this “not so” little interview. Best wishes and continued success to you and the band in the future!
Cheers
All the best
Simon
Tending The Pale Bloom 